No Lost Balls & No Penalty Shots

[Wade Whitehead]

Is there another major championship venue where lost balls and penalty shots are essentially absent from the game?

This seems to be a unique feature of #2.  It is devoid of out of bounds, hazards, and any area where a ball might be lost.

WW

[Dan Herrmann]

Get me on. I'd lose one.

[Jeff_Brauer]

It's pretty unique. I recall Pete Dye often saying that no lost balls was the biggest reason for Pinehurst's popularity as a resort.  Not that it ever/often factored into his designs.......

[Wade Whitehead]

I wonder what impact this had on the eventual pace of the tournament; aside from skulled shots (a la Fowler, for example), scores above bogey really weren't in play.  That made it impossible for anyone to catch Kaymer once he vaulted to such a significant lead.

WW

[Sean Leary]

Olympic....

[Tim Bert]

I played Pinehurst about 10 years ago. My caddie emptied my bag out and told me that I needed one ball to play #2. I had about 20 in the bag, not because I was worried about #2 but because we were playing several rounds that week and I always carry a lot of balls in the bag.  My playing partner and I convinced the caddie to allow us to keep two balls each (and then I snuck a couple more in my pockets just in case).   I played the course with one ball.

We did have a close call on either #2 or #3 - whichever one has the road wide left of the hole - and I think out of bounds can come into play there even if not for a professional or good ball striker.

[Tim Passalacqua]

Wade,

I started a thread a few months ago about Olympic and #2.  They are both awesome championship golf courses that test the best in the world, but the average Joe can play from a forward tee and enjoy his round without losing a ball and dealing with water hazards, out of bounds, etc.  What other courses offer that?  I was thinking more courses should be designed like that.  I think C&C actually do a great job of playability, but challenge the scratch golfer. 

[Jeffrey Conners]

I played Chambers Bay two years ago and did not lose a ball.  I am pretty wild off the tee.

[JBovay]

I wonder what impact this had on the eventual pace of the tournament; aside from skulled shots (a la Fowler, for example), scores above bogey really weren't in play.  That made it impossible for anyone to catch Kaymer once he vaulted to such a significant lead.

WW

Wade,

I was thinking about the same thing as I watched Kaymer struggle but maintain his lead on Saturday. I crunched some numbers to see what the difference might have been if water or OB or long rough was more in play. Here are some data from the weekends in the last 3 U.S. Opens. (Earlier years' hole-by-hole scores were not as easy to find.)

2014 U.S. Open, Pinehurst, par 70, scoring average rounds 3-4 = 73.11

Average # eagles per player per round: 0.090
Average # birdies per player per round: 2.23
Average # pars per player per round: 10.8
Average # bogeys per player per round: 4.30
Average # doubles per player per round: 0.53
Average # others per player per round: 0.052

2013 U.S. Open, Merion, par 70, scoring average rounds 3-4 = 74.21

Average # eagles per player per round: 0.034
Average # birdies per player per round: 2.36
Average # pars per player per round: 10.3
Average # bogeys per player per round: 4.34
Average # doubles per player per round: 0.74
Average # others per player per round: 0.25

2012 U.S. Open, Olympic, par 70, scoring average rounds 3-4 = 72.45

Average # eagles per player per round: 0.10
Average # birdies per player per round: 2.46
Average # pars per player per round: 10.9
Average # bogeys per player per round: 4.08
Average # doubles per player per round: 0.47
Average # others per player per round: 0.035

First, note that "others" were 5 times more common at Merion than at Pinehurst and 7 times more common than at Olympic. Doubles were also significantly more common at Merion, while the other scores happened at about the same rate.

Second, note the relative infrequency of these high scores among all the players who made the cut. Sure, if Kaymer had been leading on Saturday at Merion and played an average round, he would have been statistically likely to record a double or worse, but it wouldn't have been enough to bring him back to the field. I was surprised by this, having had the same intuition as Wade last week while watching.

For comparison, I made the same calculations for the 2014 Masters, labeling the 2nd and 13th holes as par 4s. (The weekend scoring average was 72.81, which necessitates the par adjustment for comparison with the U.S. Open scores.)

Average # eagles per player per round: 0.020
Average # birdies per player per round: 2.51
Average # pars per player per round: 10.4
Average # bogeys per player per round: 4.40
Average # doubles per player per round: 0.65
Average # others per player per round: 0.049

There were actually fewer "others" at the Masters this year than at Pinehurst. While doubles were more common at the Masters, they were still the most common at Merion among these four events.

In addition to having some water hazards and OB on (nearly) every hole, I recall that Merion also had penal, chip-out rough that was lacking at the other three events.

I'm as surprised to see the low number of high scores at Augusta (relative to the U.S. Open sites) as I am to see the overall scarcity of these high scores among the fields at these events.

JB

[BCrosby]

Great stuff JB. Thanks.

You ask:

"I'm as surprised to see the low number of high scores at Augusta (relative to the U.S. Open sites) as I am to see the overall scarcity of these high scores among the fields at these events."

I wonder if the relative paucity of high scores is a function of how far pros hit the ball and the shorter approaches into greens that leaves them. A bad miss with an 8i will almost always be less bad than a bad miss with a 4i.

Shorter approaches are a function of how modern major venues have been outstripped by how for the pros hit the ball. Even the Masters and USO courses at 7500 yds play short today.  Even at a par 70, given the leaps in driving distances since the late '90's. Doing the math in my head, a 7500 yd course today plays something like the way a 6800 yd course would have played in, say, 1980. Which would have been viewed in 1980 as borderline too short.

A test of my theory is to see if there were more doubles and 'other' scores in the USO and Masters back in the '70's or '80's.

Bob  

[John Kavanaugh]

Let's not ignore the fact that both Kaymer and Li took unplayable lies under the penalty of one stroke. Lost balls are rare in any professional tournament.

[Ronald Montesano]

Is that a good thing, in your opinion, Wade?

[Wade Whitehead]

Ron:

I think it makes the course more playable and enjoyable for the resort guest.  Championship golf is not Pinehurst's meat and potatoes.

WW

[Doug Siebert]

Great stuff JB. Thanks.

You ask:

"I'm as surprised to see the low number of high scores at Augusta (relative to the U.S. Open sites) as I am to see the overall scarcity of these high scores among the fields at these events."

I wonder if the relative paucity of high scores is a function of how far pros hit the ball and the shorter approaches into greens that leaves them. A bad miss with an 8i will almost always be less bad than a bad miss with a 4i.

Shorter approaches are a function of how modern major venues have been outstripped by how for the pros hit the ball. Even the Masters and USO courses at 7500 yds play short today.  Even at a par 70, given the leaps in driving distances since the late '90's. Doing the math in my head, a 7500 yd course today plays something like the way a 6800 yd course would have played in, say, 1980. Which would have been viewed in 1980 as borderline too short.

A test of my theory is to see if there were more doubles and 'other' scores in the USO and Masters back in the '70's or '80's.

Bob  

I don't know that being longer makes doubles/others all that much more likely when the fairways are wide and the penalty for missing them is generally moderate as it was in this year's US Open.

There's a big difference in the reason why players make doubles/others in the Masters versus a traditional thick-rough US Open.  In the Masters most doubles/others are not made off the tee, but as the player approaches the green.  In the US Open - in the absence of penalty strokes - most doubles/others begin by the player missing the fairway in a nasty lie in the rough.

[Mike_Trenham]

Wingfoot CC

[John Kavanaugh]

I really hope the Wie unplayable which would have been a lost ball without cameras and officials puts the Pinehurst no lost balls or penalties myth to bed.  Now we have the three most followed golfers in the tournament taking unplayables. I'm sure there were dozens more.

[Paul Gray]

Deeming a ball unplayable is optional, losing the thing is not. Therefore, to lump the two together rather misses the point.

[Brent Hutto]

I thought the title concerned both "lost balls" and "penalty shots[sic]". Last I checked an unplayable lie drop entails a penalty stroke.

Or was the original title talking about "penalty kicks"?

[Don Mahaffey]

No one has ever lost a ball in 5 inch rough.

[John Kavanaugh]

No one has ever lost a ball in 5 inch rough.

Don, you know as well as I do that Pinehurst did not have 5 inch rough for resort play.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

If any of us hit that shot into the spot that Wie did, how many of us would have found it without the army of helpers?

I managed to play No. 2 (pre reno) without losing a ball, but boy did I try.  I was in the trees several times, and if you have to really miss it huge to end up in them.

I also tend not to fear hazards all that much.  At my home course if you depart the maintained area, you are likely faced with a lost ball/hitting 3 from the tee, or finding it and being unplayable without an acceptable drop.  So hitting 3 again.  I'll take creeks and lakes all day rather than that.