Sandbelt Courses

[Nigel Islam]

What US course plays closest to the Sandbelt courses in Australia? In my own limited experience, I would say it might be Pinehurst #2 (since the renovation). Am I just way off base?  

[Paul Gray]

Am I missing something here or does Nebraska not seem to be the obvious answer?

[Keith Grande]

Am I missing something here or does Nebraska not seem to be the obvious answer?

Paul - the Nebraska courses I played were a bit off Sandbelt conditions. I would say Sand Hills played nothing like a Sand Belt course when I was there but Dismal was much closer.

Brian, could you elaborate?

[Rees Milikin]

For only a couple of the drier spring months, a few of the Florida courses play this way.

[Nigel Islam]

For only a couple of the drier spring months, a few of the Florida courses play this way.

Really? What courses are you thinking off. Florida is usually target golf at its best (worst?).

[Jason Topp]

Kingsley is pretty close but the severe hills tee to green make it a different experience. 

Streamsong in winter months when the grass is think is also a reasonable approximation.

None I have played really capture the experience. 

[jonathan_becker]

#2 does play like a Sandbelt course in the short grass but not off the fairway.  The wiregrass at #2 is much harder to play out of and there's nothing like it that I came across in Melbourne.  In Melbourne, you can rip right through the wispy rough no problem and there aren't pine needles all over the place like in NC.

Seminole does have similar grasses to the Sandbelt but the approaches there more aerial in my opinion.  Royal Melbourne for example, on the West, one could theoretically attempt to run the ball on the ground into every green.

I haven't played in Nebraska.

In my opinion, even though it's not completely sand-based like Melbourne, the best representation of Sandbelt golf that I've played in America are the holes at the Valley Club of Montecito that play on the less severe terrain.  Most all of the holes look similar in nature as well.

Obviously though, like Jason said, nothing really captures the same experience as what you’ll find down under.

[Rees Milikin]

For only a couple of the drier spring months, a few of the Florida courses play this way.

Really? What courses are you thinking off. Florida is usually target golf at its best (worst?).

I was thinking Seminole, Streamsong, Deltons Club, Victoria Hills as ones that would play similar.  

[Tim_Weiman]

Nigel,

Honestly, I can't think of anything in the US that really reminds me of the Sandbelt. For me, Melbourne has its own character.

[Nigel Islam]

For only a couple of the drier spring months, a few of the Florida courses play this way.

Really? What courses are you thinking off. Florida is usually target golf at its best (worst?).

I was thinking Seminole, Streamsong, Deltons Club, Victoria Hills as ones that would play similar.  

I will have to look up those last two. Still haven't made it down to Steamstrong and still haven't made the status to play Seminole.

[David Davis]

I would agree with Brian that Nebraska courses don't play like Sandbelt at all.

I've not played Pinehurst...yet but the way they look to be setting it up might qualify though I'd guess the grasses will dictate whether or not it plays similar.

the closest I've seen in the US although not matching in climate would be Bandon, so Bandon Trails or Old Mac when I last played them. They were both playing very very firm and fast and it was a bit of a hot spell.

Still they don't compare exactly since my Sandbelt experience was during the drought and greens were a bit burnt out and extremely fast like hilly marble as were the fairways. Nothing compares to that, maybe Muirfield at the last Open on the final day. That would be the closest (although it's not in the US) Only mentioning it as you would of seen it most likely.

[Mike_Clayton]

There are a few sandbelt courses that don't even play like sandbelt courses anymore:)
Pinehurst looks more like the Grange West in Adelaide than anything in Melbourne - even if the bunkers are quite different.

[Ryan Bass]

For only a couple of the drier spring months, a few of the Florida courses play this way.

Really? What courses are you thinking off. Florida is usually target golf at its best (worst?).

I was thinking Seminole, Streamsong, Deltons Club, Victoria Hills as ones that would play similar.  

Pine Barrens?  Probably too soft most of the year.

[Rees Milikin]

For only a couple of the drier spring months, a few of the Florida courses play this way.

Really? What courses are you thinking off. Florida is usually target golf at its best (worst?).

I was thinking Seminole, Streamsong, Deltons Club, Victoria Hills as ones that would play similar.  

Pine Barrens?  Probably too soft most of the year.

That is the one I debated being close or not, but I have never played it where it would resemble the Australian Sandbelt, and I might reconsider Victoria Hills to an extent.  However, the times I have played Deltona Club, it has been similar or at least what I think might be similar.

[RJ_Daley]

Mike Clayton, yours is an interesting comment.  What factors do you attribute the notion that some sand belt courses don't even play like the traditional or historic sand belt presentations?  Would that be mainly due to modern irrigation practices, a trend to regrass with different species or cultivars of the old historic swards of mainly couch grass?  Or, is it a demand by new or younger members responding to the desire to imitate what is seen most frequently on TV?

[RichMacafee]

RJ,

Not answering for Mike - but in my opinion there are a few factors.

The main one for me is the use of Legend Couch grass on a few sandbelt courses. It's a very thick, broad strain of couch which the ball sticks in and provides no run. The disadvantage of this is that it takes many hazards out of play where the ball would normally run into them - this is especially the case on dogleg holes and holes with movement.

It is also an awful grass for green surrounds, and really takes the chip and run shot out (and putt) of the equation - as well as stopping you from bouncing approach shots in to greens. It also takes some skill out of quality ball striking in my opinion, as the firm tight lie is one that separates ball striking ability.

What legend couch does do is add effective length to a course, which can be a good thing. However the negatives far outweigh that positive.

Most obvious example is Commonwealth, which has thick legend couch now. It is not a sandbelt-conditioned course any more, it's definitely parkland conditions.

Another big difference in the last 10-15 years has been the use of machines to rake bunkers. Sandbelt bunkers all used to be firm and you didn't even need a rake 90% of the time - just a brush with your foot used to repair the bunker fine.

As far as greens go, most clubs that have adopted USGA spec green profiles over the last decade have been having trouble keeping firmness in the surfaces which does effect the 'sandbelt' conditioning model that most associate with. The increase in traffic also has an impact.

Competition for members in the sandbelt area also has seen clubs over staffed and overly concerned with green grass, as unfortunately that is still seen by most as the best test of conditioning.

[Josh Stevens]

I was under the impression - presumably incorrectly - that legend thinned somewhat as it matured?  I played Comm at Christmas and yes the grass leaf was extremely broad for a couch, almost like Kik, and certainly a very different beast to play from when compared to the Wintergreen I play on more regularly.

It was a wet day so perhaps that didn't help, but it was very grabby stuff with little or no run

[Hugh Griffin]

Ignoring specifics on grass types i would guess the main reason Mike mentions that some sandbelt courses don't even play like sandbelt courses is because of the proliferation of trees on many of these courses now.

[Adam Lawrence]

Bandon, though firm, doesn't really have much in common with the Melbourne courses. As people have said, the courses on the Sandbelt are couch (bermuda). So as a comparison you are looking for a warm season course that plays uber firm. I haven't seen Seminole - the best example I've seen is Wolf Point

[Mike_Clayton]

Rich's summary was pretty good.
The biggest change to sandbelt courses came when they went away from the two-grass policy - couch in summer and poa in winter. The courses played much different as the seasons dictated. They were long and softish in the winter and firey in the summer.
Now they play the same all year - and many would argue that has been an improvement.

Rich is right re the legend. At Royal Melbourne and Commonwealth there is almost no fairway run now and it isn't the best surface to play an iron from. Poor players don't notice so much - probably they prefer its fluffy nature - but good players enjoy it less I would say.
The couch - predominantly santa- ana -  (not at RM or Comm) around the greens can be grainy and that has changed the choice of shot around the greens. Now players mostly run the ball when they are long because chipping a lofted wedge into the grain is fraught with danger - and they putt from short because they are down the grain.
At least in the winter on poa players could chip with a lot more confidence.

They are not big points but it is different from they way it was when I started playing in the early 70s.

Of course the planting of trees in the 50s and 60s has had its (largely negative) way and all the responsible clubs are dealing with the mistakes of over-planting the wrong - and now failing -  species.

[Scott Warren]

For me, Sandbelt golf is defined by interesting, understated greens, smartly-placed and aesthetically-pleasing bunkering, firm playing surfaces and quality vegetation management.

That's being so, the golf course in the US that most reminds me of the Melbourne sandbelt is The Valley Club.

[David Davis]

That's interesting about the Couch grass.

I can't remember any of the sandbelt courses I played playing remotely like Wolf Point. The grasses were not grabby in my recollection. Which leaves me trying to figure out if I just don't remember it clearly any more or if the conditioning during the draught had something to do with it?

I played, Royal Melbourne, Kingston Heath, Metropolitan and Victoria.

Royal Melbourne was really suffering and most of the grass was burned away since they didn't have their own water supply and water rationing had been in effect for a very long time so that explains that one. The others were in great shape and I just can't remember the grass being sticky at all.

[Scott Warren]

David,

On that and others' recollection and descriptions, I can only deduce that while beingof the same family, American "Bermuda" and Australian "Couch" are quite unlike one another to play on.

[Scott Warren]

The great thing is in Sydney our couch goes dormant from around late April to September and dormant couch is the next best thing to fescue. Especially in a dry autumn/winter when it never gets too soggy. All the greenside options of links golf.

[Greg Gilson]

Interestingly this has become a discussion more about what "SANDBELT" really means any more - Rather than what US Course resembles that style most. As a member of one of the clubs on the Sandbelt that had become more "GRASSBELT" or "TREEBELT" (Yarra Yarra, to save you guessing), I would have picked Garden City, Oakmont, Merion, Crystal Downs even.  Apart from the odd eucalypt, I didn't see "SANDBELT" at Valley Club - maybe it was just unusually "soft" the time I as there?