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Garland Bayley

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Re: Are golfers more demanding in 2013, should the golfer be catered to?
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2013, 06:43:41 PM »
"That said, we know the cross hazard rarely troubles the modern player as it did when balls didn't have the lift."

Oh, I see now. The modern day duffer easily lofts his ball over cross hazards. Perhaps my age disqualifies me from being modern day.  ::)

Duffers hit bad shots. Dufners hit good shots. Duffers often fall in cross hazards. Dufners seldom fall in cross hazards.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Are golfers more demanding in 2013, should the golfer be catered to?
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2013, 07:44:21 PM »
This problem is well illustrated by the number of posters on this site that feel entitled to not post under their real names as asked by Ran. It's an all me all the time world now.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Are golfers more demanding in 2013, should the golfer be catered to?
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2013, 10:44:54 PM »
Patrick,

An interesting theory, to be sure.  The biggest loser, as it were, in accommodating public/average golfers is the cross hazard, which CBM used a lot.

That said, we know the cross hazard rarely troubles the modern player as it did when balls didn't have the lift.  They still trouble the average golfer.  So, is leaving cross hazards out (except for maybe a single example as an "homage" to the old days) really dumbing down the design, or just adapting for both modern good and average play?

Things do change over time, and sticking with an old golf concept might be akin to continuing to build the Edsal, no?

Jeff,

I guess the question comes down to:  To what level does the architect diminish the challenge in order to accomodate a golfing public that doesn't have the will to stand up to a sterner challenge ?

Where will that slope end ?

What's really amazing to me is the challenge some courses, like Hollywood presented, when the equipment and ball didn't come close to matching the performance of today's equipment and ball.

In part, I think the shift in emphasis, from match to medal play is greatly responsible.


Paul Gray

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Re: Are golfers more demanding in 2013, should the golfer be catered to?
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2013, 05:11:37 AM »
"To me, the problem is getting GOLFERS to understand the nature of the game."

At some deep/foundational level, I think that's exactly it.

Do we (moderns) give ourselves over the the game, defer to it and to its ethos and challenges, participate in IT? Or do we instead demand that it remake itself to serve US, and expect that the game and its fields of play change and defer to our own personal wants and needs?

I think we (moderns), in just about every area of life, expect and live by the latter approach, centred as we are on ourselves in an increasing (and increasingly obvious) way.

The challenge, the great challenge -- and methinks, sadly, the insurmountable challenge -- is to try to turn that ship around, to try to encourage and teach a different world view and approach to the game, without duplicity or disrespect but also without making it primarily about the teaching (lest we moderns get our noses out of joint).     

Peter

As ever, very eloquently put.

Golf, although it's not always obvious, has taught me about humility by teaching me to adjust to what is, rather than demand that the world change to accommodate my immediate wants. It's the same philosophy which makes me wince at the thought of too many sets of tees, thus enabling everyone to shot, theoretically at least, a 59. I've yet to meet the improving kid that told me golf was boring because he or she was always having to hit fairway woods and many of the par 4's were three shotters.   

And to put it as ineloquently as possible "fe@k 'em." If I've tried to teach you the ways of this great sport and you refuse to get with the program, go invent your own game. As Pat so rightly said, the best route to failure is to try to please everyone.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Are golfers more demanding in 2013, should the golfer be catered to?
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2013, 08:07:30 AM »
Patrick,

An interesting theory, to be sure.  The biggest loser, as it were, in accommodating public/average golfers is the cross hazard, which CBM used a lot.

That said, we know the cross hazard rarely troubles the modern player as it did when balls didn't have the lift.  They still trouble the average golfer.  So, is leaving cross hazards out (except for maybe a single example as an "homage" to the old days) really dumbing down the design, or just adapting for both modern good and average play?

Things do change over time, and sticking with an old golf concept might be akin to continuing to build the Edsal, no?

Jeff,

I guess the question comes down to:  To what level does the architect diminish the challenge in order to accomodate a golfing public that doesn't have the will to stand up to a sterner challenge ?

Where will that slope end ?

What's really amazing to me is the challenge some courses, like Hollywood presented, when the equipment and ball didn't come close to matching the performance of today's equipment and ball.

In part, I think the shift in emphasis, from match to medal play is greatly responsible.


Patrick, and GJ,

Wholly crap! What attitudes......

Truthfully, it is part of the problem that everyone in the golf business simply loves golf, golf courses, and the golf experience.  So, courses tend to get designed that way.

If we took a survey of why the average American golfer plays, (and some have) its not about beating the golf course at all.  Its about beating your friends for a nickel about half the time. (Camaraderie) along with exercise, etc.  These surveys show that all the average golfer wants to do is shoot within 5 strokes or so of their normal score.   Sure, once or twice a year they love the idea of playing the best courses in town, and every other year, those who can afford it take a buddies trip to Pebble or Bandon.

I get the impression that if the marketing guys got a hold of golf course design, the challenge would be reduced greatly, and yes, in your eyes, they would be pandering to those "without the will to stand up to a sterner challenge."  IF we design for the customers who are going to play the golf course, it stands to reason they will enjoy it more.  Is giving the crowd what they want such a bad thing?  

What business model is successful in "teaching those people a lesson?"  Or, trying to elevate their tastes from action flicks to opera?

Surveys also show these disturbing facts - the average golfer hits only 5-15 good shots a round.  "Good shot" means airborne and in the right general direction, so the bar is pretty low.  Less than 5 good shots on average, and golfers quit.  So, my comment on the frontal bunkers is that I have actually seen the frustration of an average player hitting a "good shot" that the architect has repeatedly turned into a bad shot for them.  When they hit the good shot, they wish to be rewarded.

And, going back to my comment earlier, in general, if cross hazards punish average players 4-5X good players (and it may be 10X) and there are OTHER challenges we can design in, why use them often?  Usually, enviro restrictions cause us to use them more often than we would otherwise, which is why I rarely use full cross bunkers at a green or fw.  (I do like a fortress green every so often!)

Or put another way, does the good golfer need every type of challenge on every course, every day, such as a Redan, Cape, etc. holes?  Of course, on a Cape hole, with tee positioning, a wide fw (which in no way diminishes the actual challenge of the Cape) and other factors, we can usually make it work okay for others.  Naturally, helps if the water is on the left, not right.

That sort of thing is what gca's have been doing for decades.  The great thing is, a few have built great courses for either good players or that twice a year outing, which is fine.  What we are talking about is the courses ten miles from golfer X front door and what they should be like.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

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Re: Are golfers more demanding in 2013, should the golfer be catered to?
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2013, 11:56:15 AM »
The more I think about it, the more I think about that in any other industry, manufacturers respond to the market by carving out their own little niche.  Some people want a Mercedes; some people want an SUV; some want a car that gets 50 MPG.  

But in golf, everybody insists on a 7000-yard Mercedes, with tees that will make it play like an SUV.  The rankings are partly to blame, because conventional wisdom is that you have to have a golf course that's long to be respected and get it ranked.  Even if it's only being ranked as GOLFWEEK or GOLF DIGEST's top 30 public courses in Minnesota, they don't change their criteria ... which is stupid.

I only started being successful in this business when I learned to stick to my own niche and try to dominate it [or co-dominate it], instead of trying to get jobs that were other guys' niches.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 11:58:11 AM by Tom_Doak »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Are golfers more demanding in 2013, should the golfer be catered to?
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2013, 02:00:44 PM »
TD,

Well that is a whole different subject, but one of interest. How many GCA's rebranded themselves from one niche to another at some point?

CC went from remodels to new courses, after being sort of stuck for a while.

Perry Maxwell went from a CBM disciple at the original Dornick Hills to a $100K all in, easy to maintain course model.

Tilly went on his bunker reduction tour, and MacK preached public courses after a string of building the best there were, finally building three of them, from memory.

Perhaps Gil Hanse?  Mostly remodels to start, but that isn't all that atypical.  I might consider Ron Prichard, who went from Von Hagge associate (mostly new courses, and real estate courses) to a Ross expert.  Brian Silva similar with Raynor, although I don't have the impression that is all he does.....

Any other examples out there?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Are golfers more demanding in 2013, should the golfer be catered to?
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2013, 09:36:34 PM »
Tom & Jeff,

I think one of the problems with golf and the design of golf courses, is that golfers tend to only view the game through their eyes and their game with little consideration given to the games of others.

Whereas, you have to view play of the game from the broad of spectrums and forge a balanced challenge that doesn't favor any one golfer/element.

In general, I think there's a curve that's age related as it relates to the preferred distance a course should be.

Young bombers, irrespective of their shot pattern, want long courses.

Somewhere around 60, and often earlier, golfers come to accept that the challenge is beyond their ability and start to seek a lesser challenge in the form of forward tees.

But, still, you have to design for the young bombers and the realists alike.

Not an easy task.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Are golfers more demanding in 2013, should the golfer be catered to?
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2013, 03:50:27 PM »
... GJ,

Wholly crap! What attitudes......
...

My apologies Jeff. I misunderstood your post on first reading.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

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Re: Are golfers more demanding in 2013, should the golfer be catered to?
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2013, 03:59:10 PM »
Tom & Jeff,

I think one of the problems with golf and the design of golf courses, is that golfers tend to only view the game through their eyes and their game with little consideration given to the games of others.

Whereas, you have to view play of the game from the broad of spectrums and forge a balanced challenge that doesn't favor any one golfer/element.

In general, I think there's a curve that's age related as it relates to the preferred distance a course should be.

Young bombers, irrespective of their shot pattern, want long courses.

Somewhere around 60, and often earlier, golfers come to accept that the challenge is beyond their ability and start to seek a lesser challenge in the form of forward tees.

But, still, you have to design for the young bombers and the realists alike.

Not an easy task.

Patrick:

I think you missed my point entirely.

I was lamenting the fact that developers can't decide what niche they are aiming for.  Why don't some aim at the young bombers, and others aim at the realists?  Why do they ALL try to suit EVERYBODY?  My business sense tells me that's not the wisest strategy.

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Are golfers more demanding in 2013, should the golfer be catered to?
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2013, 04:39:14 PM »
I'm totally with Tom here.

I and most guys I play with like interesting, challenging, quirky courses which allow us mid-handicappers to reach most greens in regulation if we're playing well. This generally means courses of 6000 - 6500 yards.

Many very accomplished golfers prefer long, flat, 'fair' courses of 7000 - 7500 yards because they are rewarded for their very particular skills.

Why should both types of golfer have to be accomodated on the same course? Simply adding extra tee boxes to a quirky course so as to increase the overall distance on the card makes no sense to me. A quirky course should be played on its own merits; if the tigers don't like it then let them play somewhere else - somewhere flat, long and boring. They'll love it!

I sometimes think that the 'better' the golfer, the less the apppreciation of golf course architecture.

JMEvensky

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Re: Are golfers more demanding in 2013, should the golfer be catered to?
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2013, 04:53:43 PM »


I sometimes think that the 'better' the golfer, the less the apppreciation of golf course architecture.


Maybe not "less" so much as differently.Really good players play a different game,so maybe it stands to reason that they would look at the playing field differently.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Are golfers more demanding in 2013, should the golfer be catered to?
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2013, 05:27:19 PM »
Tom Doak wrote: "I was lamenting the fact that developers can't decide what niche they are aiming for.  Why don't some aim at the young bombers, and others aim at the realists?  Why do they ALL try to suit EVERYBODY?  My business sense tells me that's not the wisest strategy."

1. Because it was not so very long ago that they could aim to suit EVERYBODY.

2. Because a private course would like to get members while they are young and project future income from them and hold onto these members as they age.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Grant Saunders

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Re: Are golfers more demanding in 2013, should the golfer be catered to?
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2013, 05:30:36 PM »

Yet most Americans are trained by the pros and they play for score week in and week out, which is not really fun.


This is fairly typical of consistent theme that pops up pretty regularly on here. I for one really don’t understand it.

What isn’t fun about shooting a personal best score?

What isn’t fun about posting (by your own standards) a great number in trying conditions?

What isn’t fun about ticking off milestones such as breaking 100, 90, 80 or even par for the first time?

What isn’t fun about being able to track your improvement and see actual progression as your scores get lower?

What isn’t fun about starting a round poorly but then setting in and resurrecting a respectable score?

I am a big fan of match play and love playing it. I am also a big fan of strokeplay and have fun playing that also.


I can tell you that most of the young golfers my age play golf singularly for this reason. Their enjoyment comes from the challenge of trying to master the game, which we all know is impossible, not from the actually act of playing it. The amazing part of golf to me is that so many people continue to play only for the purpose of improving, when they are actually missing out on the best part of the game.

Tim

What is it that you consider the best part of the game?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Are golfers more demanding in 2013, should the golfer be catered to?
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2013, 06:15:51 PM »
Tom & Jeff,

I think one of the problems with golf and the design of golf courses, is that golfers tend to only view the game through their eyes and their game with little consideration given to the games of others.

Whereas, you have to view play of the game from the broad of spectrums and forge a balanced challenge that doesn't favor any one golfer/element.

In general, I think there's a curve that's age related as it relates to the preferred distance a course should be.

Young bombers, irrespective of their shot pattern, want long courses.

Somewhere around 60, and often earlier, golfers come to accept that the challenge is beyond their ability and start to seek a lesser challenge in the form of forward tees.

But, still, you have to design for the young bombers and the realists alike.

Not an easy task.

Patrick:

I think you missed my point entirely.

I was lamenting the fact that developers can't decide what niche they are aiming for.  Why don't some aim at the young bombers, and others aim at the realists? 

Why do they ALL try to suit EVERYBODY? 

Because they don't want to leave out a segment of the golfing world that can afford to buy their product.
The want to get members/money from anyone and everyone that has it.


 My business sense tells me that's not the wisest strategy.

I'd agree.
I don't think you can be all things to all golfers.

I would tend to think that mentality resides within those who aren't purists


Tom_Doak

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Re: Are golfers more demanding in 2013, should the golfer be catered to?
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2013, 07:31:17 AM »
But, why do you have to be a purist to do the same thing businesses do in most other fields -- diversify and try to find your own niche?

Scotland is full of golf courses that are 6500 yards or 6000 yards or 5500 yards, and all of them have found an appropriate membership.  In fact, the memberships do not segregate based on length nearly as much as we Americans might imagine.  Rich Goodale, for example, is a very good player who's a member at a course that is under 6000 yards from the tips; he understands that a course of that length can still provide plenty of challenge.  But the golf business in America (and anywhere else in the world where the Americans have influence) have dismissed the idea that a shorter course can be appealing to a big enough market.  In fact, "dismissed" is not the right word ... they have attacked the idea.


Brent Hutto

Re: Are golfers more demanding in 2013, should the golfer be catered to?
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2013, 07:35:17 AM »
Tom,

What belief about their target market do you think drives this dismissal of shorter courses among developers in USA? Do they think short courses appeal to old guys and old guys are cheap? Or are they operating on some kind of theory that lesser players tend to follow the "opinion leaders" who are mostly the big-hitting young and middle-aged men?

Or do you think it's more simplistic and just comes down to "nobody wants to play at a short course"?

Or maybe it's an equating of "shorter" with "older" and "longer" with "modern"...

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Are golfers more demanding in 2013, should the golfer be catered to?
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2013, 08:27:35 AM »
At least I see more folks, mostly seniors, coming to grips with their actual length and what is fun to play.  Used to me no man would play under 6000, so no matter what, they lied on the card, or made sure of the distance.  Now, I hear many senior men say that if there isn't a tee set under 6000, they won't bother to play.

Sadly, my belief is, that with more internet tee booking, and several courses getting their first review via that method, that the "stats" of the course may become even more too important, rather than less.

That said, for a while in the go go 90's, Fazio seemed to buck the trend with his high end clubs, with many not exceeding 6800 yards or so.  It felt like a good match of design to target golfers, since most who could afford those clubs didn't need 7000 yards, due to their middle age.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Andrew Buck

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Re: Are golfers more demanding in 2013, should the golfer be catered to?
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2013, 09:56:27 AM »
Tom, how many of those courses in Scotland have been built in the last 50 years?

There are quite a few successful longstanding clubs stateside under 6,500 yards, and a few under 6,000.  Obviously we've seen more clubs increase length from their original design here.  Have any clubs in Scotland done that?  Have the 5,500 - 6,000 yard courses refrained out of purity, cost, or land constraint?

Do elements and topography have influence as well?  I can think of a few courses in 6,000 yard range I'd be happy to be a member of, but most have the topography that allow them to play differently than a flat inland 6,000 yard course.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Are golfers more demanding in 2013, should the golfer be catered to?
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2013, 10:39:28 AM »
But, why do you have to be a purist to do the same thing businesses do in most other fields -- diversify and try to find your own niche?

I think in part, because ego, and not pure business rationale are in play.

For many developers, building a golf course is a lark, a foray into a field they love, but a field that's more of a hobby


Scotland is full of golf courses that are 6500 yards or 6000 yards or 5500 yards, and all of them have found an appropriate membership.  In fact, the memberships do not segregate based on length nearly as much as we Americans might imagine.  Rich Goodale, for example, is a very good player who's a member at a course that is under 6000 yards from the tips; he understands that a course of that length can still provide plenty of challenge.  But the golf business in America (and anywhere else in the world where the Americans have influence) have dismissed the idea that a shorter course can be appealing to a big enough market.  In fact, "dismissed" is not the right word ... they have attacked the idea.

Tom, I also think that developers are guilty of mimicking what they see on TV every week

Didn't the developer of PGA West tell Pete Dye that he wanted the hardest golf course in America.

For some reason, and I can't explain it, over the last 40 or so years, people have associated difficulty with greatness.

And, once that mindset comes into play, it's hard to dismiss and eradicate it.

There's a mentality that's not confined to golf that says, let's try to appeal and please everyone, and like you, I don't think it works.

I don't think that "once size fits all" is conducive to designing a great golf course.




Paul Gray

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Re: Are golfers more demanding in 2013, should the golfer be catered to?
« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2013, 11:32:44 AM »
But, why do you have to be a purist to do the same thing businesses do in most other fields -- diversify and try to find your own niche?

Scotland is full of golf courses that are 6500 yards or 6000 yards or 5500 yards, and all of them have found an appropriate membership.  In fact, the memberships do not segregate based on length nearly as much as we Americans might imagine.  Rich Goodale, for example, is a very good player who's a member at a course that is under 6000 yards from the tips; he understands that a course of that length can still provide plenty of challenge.  But the golf business in America (and anywhere else in the world where the Americans have influence) have dismissed the idea that a shorter course can be appealing to a big enough market.  In fact, "dismissed" is not the right word ... they have attacked the idea.



Couldn't agree more.

Education, education, education. Because education, perhaps somewhat counter intuitively, makes golfers less demanding.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

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