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Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Pete Dye the most important figure in GCA, post WWII?
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2013, 09:49:09 PM »
Pete Dye is probably the most original architect ever. I think he pushed the envelope and came up with more original concepts than many other architects combined. Not to mention, the look of his courses are so varied, yet so distinctly unique. He did all this with some of the worst sites an architect has ever been given. Probably a quarter of Doak's sites have been better than anything Dye ever got to work with! I might be slighlt exaggerating....

About Doak and C&C: I'd say their legacy might be re-introducing the concept that a great site is essential for a great course.
Dye is more like the Salvador Dali of design. He has such a great imagination that he is able to create things that no one would have ever thought of. It could be argued that it was his greatest attribute but also his Waterloo.

At the end of the day Dye's place is firmly placed in golf history. No one needs to worry about where he ranks.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is Pete Dye the most important figure in GCA, post WWII?
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2013, 09:56:19 PM »
Tom Doak,

I think of Pete as a "reconnector".

Golf in America was deviating more and more from its roots when he came on scene.

Initially, in the latter part of the 19th century and early part of the 20th century, many of the architects, pros and greenkeepers came from the UK and with them came the design concepts that they were familiar with.

As the next two generations of architects gained prominence they departed further and further from their predecessors in terms of design and it's relationship to that which existed in the UK.

RTJ would probably be the last prominent architect continuing that departure from the UK.
Perhaps Wilson as well.

Then, along came Pete.

When he was building Harbour Town in Hilton Head he told me that he was returning some of the features that he encounted in the UK, back into his work in the U.S.  He indicated that his visit to the UK had a profound impact on him and his design principles.

At the time, many considered his introduction of railroad ties and 50 gallon drum mounds as revolutionary, but, it wasn't, it was more retro than avante garde.

When I think of Pete, and in particular Hilton Head, I think of the trend toward huge greens and Pete's introduction of small greens.

So, in many ways, I think he was the primary influence in the redirection of GCA in America when he came on scene.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Is Pete Dye the most important figure in GCA, post WWII?
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2013, 09:58:09 PM »
Pete Dye is probably the most original architect ever. I think he pushed the envelope and came up with more original concepts than many other architects combined. Not to mention, the look of his courses are so varied, yet so distinctly unique. He did all this with some of the worst sites an architect has ever been given. Probably a quarter of Doak's sites have been better than anything Dye ever got to work with! I might be slighlt exaggerating....

About Doak and C&C: I'd say their legacy might be re-introducing the concept that a great site is essential for a great course.

Matt:

You know I am a huge fan of Pete Dye, and have said so already in this thread.  But, just to play Devil's Advocate, what "original concepts" did he come up with exactly?

If you throw out Teeth of the Dog, then I wouldn't quibble that 1/4 of my sites have been better than anything Pete ever got to work with.  That is largely a matter of getting what you wish for  :)   Pete's reputation was to be able to make something out of nothing -- a swamp or a garbage dump -- so that is what people brought him.  I learned a lot from that.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is Pete Dye the most important figure in GCA, post WWII?
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2013, 10:00:18 PM »
Let me also state that RTJ and Dick Wilson didn't represent the "Dark Ages" in golf course architecture as some have suggested.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

You can add Flynn and Maxwell into the mix as well.

So, I don't know where the "dark ages" in American GCA begins and ends.
Perhaps those citing the term can pinpoint the dates and architects for us.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Pete Dye the most important figure in GCA, post WWII?
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2013, 07:41:14 AM »
Patrick - I think your post #26 is right on the money.  

(PS - good old thread on the dark ages with some very good replies:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=35314.20;)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 07:43:00 AM by Dan Herrmann »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Pete Dye the most important figure in GCA, post WWII?
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2013, 07:43:26 AM »
Pat,

I agree on RTJ and DW.  Love DW stuff, and only appreciate it more after working on two of his courses.

Sleeping on the TD vs PD and who will be considered the greatest, they are of different eras really.  PD was modern, and TD is post modern.  Fazio may have even defined an era in between.

In the end, I think all the top architects of every era will end up just getting a lot of recognition.  There will always be debates about who is best, just like the Tiger vs. Jack debates, but with even less fuzzy criteria to ponder.  In the end, if we argue against course rankings (both content and need) is there really any reason to rank architects of different eras?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is Pete Dye the most important figure in GCA, post WWII?
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2013, 08:36:50 AM »
Jeff,

I agree and I should have included Fazio.

I just don't know what those referencing the "dark ages" in GCA are talking about in terms of the time frame and the architects.

Unfortunately, I think Dick Wilson has been under rated and some of his interesting courses, such as Doral,no longer contain much of Wilson.

It would have been interesting if Trump decided to restore his work

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