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Sean Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Your knowledge gap?
« on: July 07, 2013, 08:15:09 PM »
Recently Mike Clayton was at my home club in Heathcote, Victoria. This topic isn't a discussion of his work there, which I'll try to get to at some later time. 

As a result of his trip it is evident from a twitter conversation that he drove between Lancefield and Pyalong.  This is a lovely 15-20km stretch of hills crowned with granite boulders and close cropped farmland. He marvelled at the land and expressed how good a course could be in that area. 

I have driven that road perhaps 300 times and had never seen it from a golfing perspective.  I now realise there is something missing from my golfing experience/knowledge bank. I have grown up on flat courses in country Victoria, had access to a predominantly flat sandbelt, experienced a lot of links golf in Europe (again due to the nature of links, not large elevation changes).  I haven't seen any truly good course on hilly terrain (the National Old might be closest to fitting the bill - although my feelings on that are decidedly mixed). 

I have an inkling that those with experience of golf in the US are much better placed to have experienced good/great golf on hilly terrain.

Since Mike's comments I've driven the road another half dozen times I can now see some great holes, but am still perplexed at how someone would be able to connect the dots.

So three questions.

What knowledge gaps do you have?
What do you need to experience/learn to fix it?

To fix (one of) my gaps, which 5 courses do I need to see?

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your knowledge gap?
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2013, 08:19:38 PM »
Sean...great questions.

Concerning my knowledge gaps, I know they are big...but I'd argue I'm unaware of most of them.  Hence the name, knowledge gaps.  What's the phrase, 'the more I learn, the less I know.'

However, I know I need to play some courses on the Australian Sandbelt and in The Heathlands for sure.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your knowledge gap?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2013, 09:01:44 PM »
Since so much of the land in the US is not links land, our golf courses are predominantly parkland by necessity. I have always felt that Tillinghast did the most with very average sites, so he is certainly one to study. Winged Foot (fantastic green complexes) and Baltustrol get most of the publicity, but I think Ridgewood (watch the Barclays next year) is his best because he used modest land movement superbly.

Doak's Stonewall and C & C's Bandon Trails are obviously worthy of study in this area.

You could take a Raynor course like Yale or Shoreacres.

Since NGLA is links-like, take a Macdonald like Chicago, Sleepy Hollow or Merion ;)

And you would want a Ross course, so I'll say Pinehurst #2.

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your knowledge gap?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2013, 09:20:50 PM »
Heathland - I need to play around London.

Bryan Icenhower

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your knowledge gap?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2013, 09:44:44 PM »
I clearly have a vast number of gaps, none more apparent to me than having played very very little golf that would qualify under the heathland category.  Ally McIntosh's thread around "four courses for the rest of hour life" made me think long and hard what course to choose for healthland. Having played Hidden Creek for the first time this year, and having fallen in love with it, it became very apparent me that I am missing a very wide swath of architectural knowledge as I could not come up with another course I had played that would be considered (at least in my mind) heathland.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your knowledge gap?
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2013, 10:01:21 PM »
My biggest knowledge gap is truly understanding the Old Course...I mean on an intuitive, comprehensive level.  I have been there and played it...but I know that I don't fully grasp all that is there.

Bart

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your knowledge gap?
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2013, 10:16:27 PM »
My biggest knowledge gap is truly understanding the Old Course...I mean on an intuitive, comprehensive level.  I have been there and played it...but I know that I don't fully grasp all that is there.

Bart

Bart, I take many of Dr. Mackenzie 's points to mean that it is almost impossible to, if not totally impossible to, fully grasp all that there at The Old Course.  But I am with you, that it would be fun to try. 
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your knowledge gap?
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2013, 10:27:21 PM »
Sean,

Doesn't every architect look at land as they drive past and wonder what type of golf it might allow?!!
That land looked like it might do something really good - and in a part of the state where there there is nothing but flat and relatively dull golf.
It's a bigger question but it comes down to the quality of golf people are prepared to play, how far they will drive to play it and how to arrange it financially.


Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your knowledge gap?
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2013, 10:28:02 PM »
My biggest knowledge gap is truly understanding the Old Course...I mean on an intuitive, comprehensive level.  I have been there and played it...but I know that I don't fully grasp all that is there.

Bart

Bart, I take many of Dr. Mackenzie 's points to mean that it is almost impossible to, if not totally impossible to, fully grasp all that there at The Old Course.  But I am with you, that it would be fun to try. 

Mac, I am sure I couldn't know it all..but the gap between what I know and what there is to know is large  ;D.  I'd like to make it smaller  ;)

Bart

Sean Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your knowledge gap?
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2013, 11:43:49 PM »
Mike,

I agree. It is just that due to my experience (or lack therof) of golf I had not really considered a course possible on such terrain.  Since your comment I have looked at that land as I passed it with a different eye.  Really looking for golf rather than some beautiful views and have been suprised at what potential I see.  Although due to the limits of my knowledge and experience I don't know how far a competent architect could push the terrain and find those links I am missing.
 

P.S.
Drove the Pyalong-Lancefield Road this morning and there was a good thick layer of fog in the valleys and beautiful early morning sun on the hills and boulders above it. I couldn't stop to take a photo but it wouldn't have taken Aidan Bradley's skill to make a hole in that setting a remarkable sight.

It's funny how when you see something so regularly you take it for granted. In the last few weeks I've been able to look at that stretch of land as if seeing it for the first time and been able to appreciate how lucky I am to live where I do. Now I just need to find some financial backing to the tune of $5mill or so to make "Burke & Wills" Golf Club a reality.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your knowledge gap?
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2013, 04:54:25 AM »
Sean,

Maybe try and find out who owns it and if they would mind if we walked it.
We could do it next time I am up at Heathcote.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your knowledge gap?
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2013, 07:43:28 AM »
Sean...

Once place I recommend seeing is Mullen, NE.  Not only the golf courses there, but the surrounding land.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Sean Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your knowledge gap?
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2013, 08:12:22 AM »
Mike,

That's either upping the ante or calling my bluff.

Either way it looks like I've got some homework to do.  I'll get back to you.  

Mac,

Don't worry if I ever do make it to the states Mullen is on the list.




Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your knowledge gap?
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2013, 08:28:20 AM »
Honestly, my biggest gap is focusing on the Open rota and similar level courses while in GBI.  Looking back, I think there would have been a lot more to learn by spending some time on lesser known courses.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your knowledge gap?
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2013, 04:47:07 PM »
Sean

Thanks. I look forward to seeing what you can find out.


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