Have bunkers ceased being

[Patrick_Mucci]

hazards in the Open ?

They're perfectly groomed

In watching the Open it appeared that the rough was the hazard and the bunkers a place of refuge for the players

Recovery from the bunkers seemed to be far more accurate than recovery from the rough.

If so, do players fear them less and alter their strategy, preferring a bunker to deep, gnarly greenside rough ?

[Ken Moum]

Of course the have.  But then it was also true the first time I saw a U.S. Open in person, at Hazeltine in 1970.  Back then about 75% of the bags I looked into had the telltale red or black rubber plug of the Wilson and Hagen Fluid Feel sand wedge.  (An equally high percentage had Macgregor persimmon drivers.)

Even then the bunkers were so good that the pros could control their ball from the sand much, much better than from the despicable rough the USGA grew.

It may have gotten even more pronounced in recent years.

The 70s are when I first began to think about how golfers interacted with the course setup and architecture, and one of the first things I remember figuring out is that if you want to terrorize scratch golfers while giving bogey golfers a break all you had to do was fill in the greenside bunkers and grow rough.  Hackers will just chop it out onto the green and make their score while good players struggle to get up and down.

I have since realized that shaved approaches might be an even better solution, but not always.

K

[Thomas Dai]

Good thread Pat and good calls from KBM and when Ken says he figured "out was that if you want to terrorize scratch golfers while giving bogey golfers a break all you had to do was fill in the greenside bunkers and grow rough. Hackers will just chop it out onto the green and make their score while good players struggle to get up and down. I have since realized that shaved approaches might be an even better solution, but not always." he's got it absolutely spot on. Thing is though, sand bunkers look good on TV and in magazine photos.....but grass bunkers are much superior as hazards, easier maintenance/less cost as well I imagine.

Any courses of significance in the US or elsewhere worldwide that don't have any and bunkers? In the UK places like Royal Ashdown Forest, Minchinhampton Old, Kington come immediately to mind.

All the best

PS - great to see an architecture relating thread appearing again.

[Jim Nugent]

I took a quick look at the stats on the USGA website.  Looks like overall the players have gotten up and down well less than half the time out of the sand.  Eyeballing the stats, looks like it might  be around 33%.  

I don't know the course at all, but based on the actual numbers it seems like the bunkers are imposing a penalty.  

[David_Tepper]

"I don't know the course at all, but based on the actual numbers it seems like the bunkers are imposing a penalty." 

Jim Nugent -

Please don't confuse us with the facts!

DT

[Terry Lavin]

If they were as fearsome as they look on television, methinks they wouldn't surround the fairway bunkers with rough.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I took a quick look at the stats on the USGA website.  Looks like overall the players have gotten up and down well less than half the time out of the sand.  Eyeballing the stats, looks like it might  be around 33%.  


And how often are they getting it up and down from the rough from a similar distance

I don't know the course at all, but based on the actual numbers it seems like the bunkers are imposing a penalty.  

But,

How does that penalty compare to the penalty the rough is extracting from similar distances

You can't compare a 30 yard bunker shot to a 2 yard shot from greenside rough, unless you're David Tepper and don't understand the issue

[BHoover]

Maybe Jack had a point about using furrowed rakes at Muirfield Village a few years back? Of course, the pros started complaining because they couldn't get a perfect lie in the bunkers.

I'd love to see bunkers play more like hazards. Furrows, stones, irregular lies, etc. They are supposed to be hazardous. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian,

Grooming bunkers has gone to the extreme.

What David Tepper doesn't understand is that the rough can extract a far more severe penalty than the bunkers.

Given the choice of a bunker or 6-9 inch rough, I'll take the bunker every time

[BHoover]

Patrick, aren't there courses in the UK that have stones in their bunkers? I'm not saying a bunker should be made intentionally difficult (maybe except for furrows), but I definitely agree that the grooming has been taken too far.