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Dieter Jones

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AAC III - Course 17 Hooker Dunes
« on: May 06, 2013, 07:45:50 PM »
Alex said he would kindly add the judges comments on my course along with my supplementary information (yardage book) if I started a discussion thread.

As mentioned previously I'm thrilled to finish 4th and look forward to hearing what thought I did well / badly. I will wait until the extra info is added to this thread before commenting further but welcome any feedback you may have.

cheers, Dieter
Never argue with an idiot. They will simply bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Alex Miller

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Re: AAC III - Course 17 Hooker Dunes
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2013, 09:02:36 PM »
Here are Dieter's layout and yardage guide followed by some words he submitted.




In designing Hooker Dunes I focused on utilising the contours of the existing land to provide varied and interesting golf. I also tried to make the course walking friendly by keeping tees close to greens. There are plenty of Sunset Golf options available.
The course has 3 sets of tees at the following yardages:

Blue = 6935 yards
White = 6590 yards
Red = 5355 yards

Style – I envisaged a course of similar style to the nearby Sand hills. The bunkers were drawn here as smooth edged shapes for simplicity however I always saw them in the “wild style” of its famous neighbour.

Feedback – I was lucky enough to receive feedback from several people and from this I offer the following responses (ie admit my mistakes and clarify the unclear):

1st Hole – the carry to the fairway is very long for an opening tee shot and I would reduce this by extending the fairway so that it starts close to the Red tees. I would also add a new tee adjacent to the practice green in front of the clubhouse.

3rd Hole – Shooting for the green in 2 (ie direct line to the green) is a total carry of 460 yards (with a further 45 yards to the green centre). The tee shot runs out at a maximum of 300 yards (Blue tees). In order to encourage more people to take on the second shot I will add a large bunker on a direct line to the green. The fairway is unchanged. The bunker sits short of the fairway in the natural rough and would be approximately 25 x 30 yards in size

15th Hole – 2 people commented that this could be a “filler” hole. The hole does appear quite plain in my diagram however close examination reveals some nice subtle contours in the landing zone (see Jim’s flyover). The intention of this hole was to have no “hazards” and an open, downhill tee shot to encourage golfers to open the shoulders. The real feature of this hole is however the Green which is the wildest on the course (and largest).

Yardage Book

Attached is a yardage book. Please note that the back tees are now called the Blue Tees (not black as per the scorecard). Coloured circles in the centre of the fairways are distances to the centre of the green.

Orange = 100 Yards
Blue = 150 Yards
Red = 200 Yards

Where slopes are drawn in the greens maps, the solid line represents the high point with dashed lines running down hill away from the solid line.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AAC III - Course 17 Hooker Dunes
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2013, 09:07:14 PM »
Tommy Naccarrato says:

While I’m not a great believer in formula, especially when it comes to pristine sand hills property, your first hole is a good hole, but not as an opener. It would be open to a lot of ridicule from those overplaying either side of the fairway, and the second hole is much the same. Your relying on to many high points and losing the beauty of the land!

I really enjoyed the seriousness of the 6th, which seems like a classic reverse Redan with a very intelligent drop off towards the back, instilling the fear needed in many one-shot holes today. The 7th is a great golf hole in its simplicity, use of land and use of bunkers. You didn’t need to over do it here and you accomplished what many others haven’t on that one hole alone!

I’m not a fan of #8. Your simply getting goofy on what seems to be some really good land at your disposal., but you get back on tract with the 9th, and the once again GREAT use of terrain at your disposal, while not needing some goofy bunkers placed everywhere to decorate.

I think you blew a great “Dell” opportunity—you almost got it at the 17th.

Great job though! Some of the holes are perfect for the site!



Ron Whitten says:

   First practice range I’ve seen among the entries that didn’t face east or west. This one faces south, and while that’s directly into the prevailing wind, I think most player prefer to warm up into a facing wind rather than a crosswind.  Since the architect failed to provide a scale to his diagram, I am left to guess at the dimensions of the range, but it appears to me to be no more than 250 yards deep (Certainly it’s not as long as any of his tee shot-lines on the diagram) but over 200 yards wide. Perhaps he’s assuming a strong facing wind will blunt all practice tee shots all the time? My suggestion would be to length and narrow the range, and provide a crescent tee so golfers could adjust to wind conditions.

   The architect provided generally three tee boxes per hole, and while it’s not overly long from the back tees (short, in fact, by today’s standards) the regular tee marker length at 6,600 yards is extremely long for average golfers. (Barney Adams’s research on “Tee it Forward” suggests a 6,400 yard course requires an average drive of 250 yards to play each hole in regulation.  The average golfer does not average anywhere near that length.)  I’d like to see the scorecard show one more measurement, a combination of White and Red tees, that measures around 6,100 yards for average players. Has to be designated on the scorecard – and played – for handicap purposes. 

   Also, while the architect tried hard to position tee boxes close to previous greens to make the course walkable, he (like most other entrants) placed the back tees closest to those previous greens, even though back tees are rarely used.  My preference is to see the regular tees closest to previous greens.  Position back tees off in the distance, back over one’s shoulder.  To really make a course walkable for most members – and quickly played – put the regular tees close to greens.

   My personal feeling is that the best golf holes are those that look and play differently from each tee box on a hole. Unfortunately, this architect basically aligned each tee box in echelon on each hole.  With so much width available on this site, I would have liked to have seen some vastly different angles presented by varying the tee box locations on each hole. (I do not the architect proposed in his written report to extend the first fairway back toward the tee and adding a forward tee near the practice putting green. This would clearly change the angle of attack for forward tee players and, on occasion, would make a neat challenge for skilled players. (Would they dial back and hit iron off the tee, or crank it up and attempt to drive the green on the opening hole?) 

   While the designer has clearly provided for lots of ground-game shots, allowing for rolling approaches into greens, bounce banks near some greens and chipping hollows below several putting surfaces, it didn’t seem to provide as many options off the tee as I would have liked to have seen on this site.  I should point out that I’m not a fan of dual fairway holes, as I’ve found that most often, one fairway or the other goes entirely unused (and is eventually abandoned) because there’s no strategic reason to use one fairway on certain days and another fairway on other days.  I see that here on the par-5 third hole, where the architect splits the fairway with a bunker, posing the option of playing down the right-hand side to set up a long second shot over native ground to reach the green in two.  But, as he pointed out in his written support, that’s apparently around a 200-yard carry in the air, not something most golfers at this course will likely try, particularly with a prevailing south wind.  The percentages are to play up the left side, even though the axis of the green is aligned with the right-hand fairway. The architect suggests that placing a large bunker on a direct line to the green will encourage golfers to attempt to play up the right-side and go for the green in two. (This is the theory that Jim Engh does on a lot of his par 5s.  A bunker well short of the green foreshortens the carry and encourages more golfers to go for it.)  The question still remains, just how many golfers will really take the bait and play up the right side. (Since the forward tee is to the left, no one from that tee will intentionally play to the right.) As it stands now, it looks good on paper but probably doesn’t work as a practical matter. There needs to be something more – a different green configuration, I should think – to make golfers use one side of the hole on some days and the other side on other days.  Of course, the architect is probably thinking that’s not his intention. That the right hand fairway is for gamblers and the left-hand fairway is for meek players. But he must realize that once he leaves the property, the owner will observe play, and if the right-side fairway goes unused, sooner or later, to cut costs (an important issue these days), he’ll end up not maintaining the right-hand fairway).  I’ve seen it happen to courses designed by Bill Coore, among others.  Theory is one thing; practice something else entirely. 

   An even more obvious situation is the short par-4 eighth.  Why would anyone play up the left-hand fairway on this hole?  The average golfer, who can’t reach the top of the hill, isn’t going to play that line and leave a longer second shot.  The good player will be going for the green.  That left-hand fairway would quickly be converted back to native, with a savings in irrigation and mowing costs of $10,000 or more per year.  Want to save that dual fairway? Position the green in the center. Then some players will go left or right, depending upon the hole location. (And some will try to carry the bunkers and reach the green from the tee.)
   Not quite sure why the architect used the dip on the ninth hole as his landing area. (He’s the second architect to do so.)  It’s hard to say from this topo how deep that depression is (on the real topo, I read it at about 20 feet), but he then positions the ninth green below the plateau fairway (again, 20 feet below). So the result is a hole where your drive is blind (rolling down into a hollow) and from there it’s up over a plateau to a blind green.  Not my kind of golf hole, particularly when there was plenty of room to go elsewhere.

   I applaud the architect for providing a variety of green contours (as shown on his yardage guide) and especially like to see his “simple” par-4 15th, with no bunkers but, as he says, the largest and wildest green on the course. Despite the fact that two friends dubbed it a filler hole, I think it’s a marvelous hole, because it’s trying to use the natural landforms to affect strategy and protect hole locations with green contours instead of bunkers.  Too many architects rely far too much on bunkers on every single hole to pose shot situations.  It’s refreshing to see a bunkerless hole.  Plus, it’s a good balance. Fairly benign tee shot, but an exacting second to a huge, undulating green.

CONCLUSIONS TO ENTRY 17:  Actually a very good routing, positioned so that golfers face a different wind condition on nearly every hole (only 12 and 13 play consecutively in the same direction).  Good variety in the par 3s, one a pitch shot, another a strong 220-yards into a quartering southwind, but two of them play in precisely the same direction.  Not a good thing, especially on this site where there is so much room.  Would like to have seen more variety in the par 5s. Two play east, two play west, all involve crosswinds.  Don’t have a problem with back-to-back par 5s at two and three, but operators might. That’s likely to clog up play early in many rounds.  If this architect were to be hired, I’d urge him to re-examine his eighth and ninth holes, and consider moving the clubhouse to the position where he placed the villas.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AAC III - Course 17 Hooker Dunes
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2013, 09:13:33 PM »
 8) i thought the winds weren't part of the evaluations?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AAC III - Course 17 Hooker Dunes
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2013, 09:22:02 PM »
8) i thought the winds weren't part of the evaluations?

Thanks Steve. It's been adressed elsewhere. Care to contribute anything to the discussion?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 09:24:46 PM by Alex Miller »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AAC III - Course 17 Hooker Dunes
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2013, 10:56:54 PM »
...
   The architect provided generally three tee boxes per hole, and while it’s not overly long from the back tees (short, in fact, by today’s standards) the regular tee marker length at 6,600 yards is extremely long for average golfers. (Barney Adams’s research on “Tee it Forward” suggests a 6,400 yard course requires an average drive of 250 yards to play each hole in regulation.  The average golfer does not average anywhere near that length.)  I’d like to see the scorecard show one more measurement, a combination of White and Red tees, that measures around 6,100 yards for average players. Has to be designated on the scorecard – and played – for handicap purposes. 
...

OK, lets do the math. 250 * 14 = 3500.
Let's conservatively estimate 4 200 yard second shots on par 5s. (After all this player can hit 250 yard drives.
(6600 - (3500 + 800))/18 = 127 yard average approach shot.
Either Barney Adam's can't do math or he advocates boringly stupid golf courses. The player hitting 250 yard drives will have on average a pitching wedge approach. This is the same stupid argument that says regular players should have the same approach shots that the pros do. Well, the pros don't play golf as it was meant to be played. They play a game of target shooting, bombing, and gouging.
They need courses of 8500 yards to return to something approximating the intended game.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AAC III - Course 17 Hooker Dunes
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2013, 11:17:31 PM »
...
   An even more obvious situation is the short par-4 eighth.  Why would anyone play up the left-hand fairway on this hole?  The average golfer, who can’t reach the top of the hill, isn’t going to play that line and leave a longer second shot.  The good player will be going for the green.  That left-hand fairway would quickly be converted back to native, with a savings in irrigation and mowing costs of $10,000 or more per year.  Want to save that dual fairway? Position the green in the center. Then some players will go left or right, depending upon the hole location. (And some will try to carry the bunkers and reach the green from the tee.)
...

What I really hate is judges that assume an economic model for the course and criticize a design for requiring too much money.

Will you tell Bandon Dunes that the wide open left side of #16 on the Bandon Dunes Course needs to go back to native to save mowing costs? Maybe there are left handed slicers out there that think such areas are perfect!

There is no such thing as "The average golfer"! The variation in play by the majority of golfers is so vast that architects shouldn't be shoe horning them into boxes.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 11:19:26 PM by GJ Bailey »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AAC III - Course 17 Hooker Dunes
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2013, 11:23:23 PM »
...
   An even more obvious situation is the short par-4 eighth.  Why would anyone play up the left-hand fairway on this hole?  The average golfer, who can’t reach the top of the hill, isn’t going to play that line and leave a longer second shot.  The good player will be going for the green.  That left-hand fairway would quickly be converted back to native, with a savings in irrigation and mowing costs of $10,000 or more per year.  Want to save that dual fairway? Position the green in the center. Then some players will go left or right, depending upon the hole location. (And some will try to carry the bunkers and reach the green from the tee.)
...

What I really hate is judges that assume an economic model for the course and criticize a design for requiring too much money.

Will you tell Bandon Dunes that the wide open left side of #16 on the Bandon Dunes Course needs to go back to native to save mowing costs? Maybe there are left handed slicers out there that think such areas are perfect!

There is no such thing as "The average golfer"! The variation in play by the majority of golfers is so vast that architects shouldn't be shoe horning them into boxes.


I have to say I largely agree, Garland.

Dieter, I thought your green contours were very clear and well thought out. I can see the strategy behind them easily and really would want to play your course to experience the shots out there. Yours was one of my favorites.

Dieter Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AAC III - Course 17 Hooker Dunes
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2013, 08:14:25 AM »
Bump in the hope that mike Nuzzo might be able to offer his comments on this and the other finalists courses. It was great to read Tommy and Ron's thoughts from the judging process
Never argue with an idiot. They will simply bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AAC III - Course 17 Hooker Dunes
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2013, 01:22:26 PM »
4, 5, 11, 12, 14, 17, 18

Are what I have from my record of the holes I liked. Unfortunately, I had you pretty far back in the field with only 7 holes that stood out for me.
I would like to hear from others what I missed that got you to the finals, and got you to place high.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne