[Ryan McLaughlin]

I am new here but I have been lurking for a long time.  I look forward to joining the discussion in any way I can. 

I played in an SCGA Mid-Am qualifier last week and they rolled out their new pace of play policy...here's a link for your viewing pleasure.

http://scga.org/Tournaments/Policies/PaceOfPlay.aspx

Essentially, you need to finish within 12 minutes of the group in front of you or face a 2 stroke penalty for the whole group unless there is a ruling or exceptional circumstance.. 

I certainly commend the SCGA for rolling this out and I do hope it is a step in the right direction.  They also had us sign their ongoing pace of play pledge on the first tee.  Again that deserves serious kudos.  Ive spent way too many 6 hour rounds during team play in the last couple months. My concerns for the policy is that it applies to the whole group regardless of who the real offending party is.  I can yell at my playing partners all day and if they do not speed up I have a two stroke penalty at the end of the day.  There are too few officials around to rat out the slow player during the round and they are not clocking individual players.  They did give a way too generous target time of 4:45 and we were the 3rd group out.  I do believe this will be a positive change although it will create some tense moments for the boys at the SCGA.  Here's to a step in the right direction!   Any other GAs taking pace of play more seriously?

[David Ober]

They also used the same policy at the recent Foursomes tournament. Worked great for both, I thought. We finished our foursomes round (there were three two-man alternate shot teams per group) in under four hours. Pace of play at Red Hill CC was great.

[Mark Smolens]

The Northern Illinois Men's Amateur Golf Association (NIMAGA) has had a 12/24 pace of play policy for years.  As is the case with the policy described, your group must finish 12 minutes behind the group in front of you, or 24 minutes behind the group in front of them. In actual effect, the policy is an absolute nightmare.

The last time I played on their tour (it was '03), the two events I played took 5+ hours. These guys mark 2 footers all day until at least the 16th hole, and then literally run the last two or three holes in order to not get penalized.

My first NIMAGA event -- going back 12 years or so -- was at a small municipal tract in Mundelein named Countryside. They have two courses, neither of which is that interesting (but playing tournament golf remains enjoyable). The 16th hole is a par-5, reachable even by shorter hitters, so after arriving at my ball, my group waited for the green to clear. One of my fellow competitors hit his shot, and when I looked up, I saw the group which had just left the green sprinting up the hill on the next hole (an uphill par-4). The group in front of them could be seen sprinting down the hill on the parallel 18th hole. WTF? Oh, that's the "NIMAGA trot" I was told. They do this all the time. Play/WAIT all day, and then run the last couple of holes to make up any ground to avoid a penalty for slow play.

On our Weekly Challenge tour, each group gets a pace of play monitor (the starter attaches it to the bag of one of the players in the group)which tells you throughout the round where you are supposed to be (4th tee, 5th green, etc.). Our marshals check the monitor, and if you're behind you get placed "on the clock." Focus on the 12 minute interval at the end of a round is a recipe for disaster. . . unless you enjoy 5 hour rounds of golf.

[David Ober]

Here's the entire pace of play policy for the SCGA this year. In practice, it's working great. Two tournaments so far, and very few issues. I'm a fan so far:

The Tournament Committee at each competition will determine the maximum allotted time each group is permitted to play the stipulated round.  This time will be posted on each player’s scorecard and each player is expected to maintain a pace faster than the maximum allotted time. The stipulated round is complete when the last player in the group completes play of the final hole and the flagstick is replaced.

LEAD GROUP(S):

The lead group(s) must finish their stipulated round within the maximum allotted time established by the committee.  If they finish over the maximum allotted time each player will be assessed a two-stroke penalty to their score for the final hole.

Exception: If the lead group is held up by play that was sent out before them or that began on the opposite tee, they will be exempt from the pace of play penalty if they finish over their allotted time but within 12 minutes of the group ahead of them.
FOLLOWING GROUPS:
Any subsequent group must finish their stipulated round within the maximum allotted time established by the committee. If they finish over the maximum allotted time, they must finish within 12 minutes of the group ahead of them.  If they finish over the maximum allotted time and more than 12 minutes behind the group ahead of them, each player will be assessed a two-stroke penalty to their score for the final hole.

EXEMPTIONS FROM PENALTY:

If a group does not finish within their allotted time due to circumstances beyond their control (such as a ruling or a ball search on the final hole, or any other circumstances which the Committee deems to be exceptional) but was otherwise in position during the play of their final hole, the Committee may be justified in waiving the penalty.  Being in position means to be immediately behind the group in front of you.

Any group that has a slow, deliberate or non-responsive player(s) may report the player(s) to SCGA Staff or a SCGA Rules Official at any time during the stipulated round and the player(s) will be monitored. If SCGA Staff or a SCGA Rules Official identifies that a player or players in the group are a cause of the group failing to maintain pace of play and determines other players are playing within the requirements of this policy, those meeting the requirements of this policy may be absolved from penalty.

THE SCGA COMMITTEE RESERVES THE RIGHT TO REVIEW ALL PENALTY SITUATIONS.

PLAYER RESPONSIBILITIES UNDER THIS POLICY

Read and understand the policy. Ask staff or the starter any questions in advance of their starting time.
Sign and acknowledge the SCGA Pace of Play Pledge at their starting tee.
Play ready golf throughout their entire round.
Check their overall pace after completion of 9 holes relative to their maximum allotted time on their score card.
Make every effort to finish their final hole within their maximum allotted time or within 12 minutes behind the group in front of them.
Realize they may be out of position if they complete a hole over their maximum allotted time on their score card.

[jeffwarne]

As long as they are monitoring the play all day, I see no problem with this.
But I'd like to think the asshole who holds you up on #2,3,4,5,6,7 be penalized, not absolved because he ran 16,17,18 to avoid penalty, which now puts YOU in jeopardy of penalty unless you run as well.
a minute lost is permanantly lost-the group behind you still waited-it's hard for me to see how a group can be out of position for most of their round, yet not be timed or penalized.
Hopefully, the policy is not a substitute for early monitoring of groups, which I see happening in junior events all the time

[David Ober]

As long as they are monitoring the play all day, I see no problem with this.
But I'd like to think the asshole who holds you up on #2,3,4,5,6,7 be penalized, not absolved because he ran 16,17,18 to avoid penalty, which now puts YOU in jeopardy of penalty unless you run as well.
a minute lost is permanantly lost-the group behind you still waited-it's hard for me to see how a group can be out of position for most of their round, yet not be timed or penalized.
Hopefully, the policy is not a substitute for early monitoring of groups, which I see happening in junior events all the time

Yes, I can tell you that there is considerable early monitoring of groups in conjunction with this policy.

Like I said: Overall, I'm very pleased with it after two tournaments.

[Ryan McLaughlin]

I am 100% behind the policy as well.  I can't think of any better to spend my SCGA ducats than slow play initiatives.  Here is my concern...A couple of years ago I was in a Mid-Am qualifier and two of the three of us played as we all should.  The 3rd in our group had a caddie and despite his score relative to reality of qualifying, they debated on every shot like Zach Johnson and Damon Green...just painful.  We were on the clock two separate times and the 2nd coming off the 16th green with legitimate shots.  We told the officials multiple times about this dudes pace and we asked that they time him...especially on the greens.  We told them they needed to pick it up but that fell on deaf ears.    My concern is that if we are in this situation again I will get a two shot penalty without recourse.  I do hope that the guys in headquarters will listen to the players that support and embrace this policy.  All in all a good start!

BTW, a buddy got dinged on this a while back when they test drove the policy in a four-ball qualifier.  Similar to the situation described above...wait on every shot until 16 they they motor in after they realize they have no prayer to qualify. 

[Will Peterson]

The FL State GA has a similar policy, and I've never had any issues.  They set a pace target, and you must finish within that time or within 15 minutes of the group in front of you.  If you are the lead group, you must finish within the time.  The pace target is sometimes a little slow, but we always finish within it.  Lots of 4:15-4:45 rounds, which for tournament golf is pretty good.  There are no warnings from officials, but you can ask an official if you are in position.  The time you are supposed to finish each hole is printed on the bottom of the scorecard, so you know exactly where you should be.  From what I understand, if there are extraordinary circumstances, you can talk to the committee about penalties.  I have heard they are quite fair.

I really like it.  There have been a few times that it seemed like my group was waiting a lot, and I figured we would be way over time but within the 15 minutes.  When we finished, I was surprised to see that we had played in 4:25.

[Garland Bayley]

Tournament chess has clocks timing the individual, why not golf?

[David Bartman]

Ryan and David -

So far the new pace of play policy has worked great, however, both tournaments that have been played have been Mid-ams and don' t have the kids involved.  When SoCal am qualifying happens we will see how well these work. 

The simple fact that they gave threesomes 4:40 to play 18 holes is too long to start with.  Time will tell

[Keith OHalloran]

Is there anything similar for match play? Every year, the final match of our club championship turns into a nightmare, looking for ideas on how to combat it.

[Wade Whitehead]

It's tough to penalize slow play without penalizing bad play.

WW

[Mark Bourgeois]

Keith: send 'em off 4:30 before dark . Mother Nature always bats last, and she bats 1.000.

[Jeff Fortson]

Ryan and David -

So far the new pace of play policy has worked great, however, both tournaments that have been played have been Mid-ams and don' t have the kids involved.  When SoCal am qualifying happens we will see how well these work. 

The simple fact that they gave threesomes 4:40 to play 18 holes is too long to start with.  Time will tell

My thoughts exactly.

I spoke with SCGA staff about this very thing.  I expressed my absolute joy at the success of the program so far.  But, I did beg the SCGA to not get cold feet when they have to pull the trigger on some young "hot shot" at something like the SCGA Amateur.  The cllege and high school kids are my only worries.  At the SCGA Forusomes we played threesomes in alternate shot format and played in 3:56 and 4:06 for the two rounds and at the SCGA Mid Am Qualifier we played in 4:16 in threesomes.  Not bad for tournament golf.

Jeff F.

PS: See you at the tournament David.  Maybe we'll get paired together.  Who knows?

[Michael Moore]

Tournament chess has clocks timing the individual, why not golf?

This week Sergio Garcia had to climb into a tree, identify his ball, have his gear handed up to him, and try out a fair number of stances and swings to see if it was playable. When does the clock start and how long does he get?

[Garland Bayley]

Tournament chess has clocks timing the individual, why not golf?

This week Sergio Garcia had to climb into a tree, identify his ball, have his gear handed up to him, and try out a fair number of stances and swings to see if it was playable. When does the clock start and how long does he get?

You treat it just like in chess when games are suspended for the day. Both players typically are still competing away from the board, but no time is charged. Unusual circumstances such as this have no limit.

[Ryan McLaughlin]

something needs to be done at the high school and college level.  The teams are high profile and taking up course time.  The coaches need to be held accountable for pace of play.  It seems like such an easy way to fix the problem.  Beyond penalizing strokes, go to the coach and say speed up or play elsewhere.  It will be interesting to see how the SCPGA Toyota series is managed as to pace of play.  Those are some of the best juniors in the country and I hope they are steadfast in holding them accountable.  In the meantime I am very proud of the guys at the SCGA for  pushing this out.

On a side note, one of the clocks that are posted at 9 and 18 to let people know where they stand was whacked with a putter and broken after the qualifier at Tijeras Creek.  They sent an email out looking for witnesses.  Obviously not everyone thinks pace of play is an issue.

[corey miller]

Ryan

My club is host for the home matches of three different High Schools.  I have noticed three hour nine hole matches (four kids in each group) and have suggested that perhaps the club, who is hosting these kids "for the good of the game", should also put a time limit on the matches "for the good of the game".....  It has nothing to do with member access as the matches are generally late afternoon weekdays.  Would giving the schools 3:30 hours on the course (nine hole matches, multiple tee times) from 4:00 to 7:30 cause some undue hardship? 

All the advocates for fast play (until someone suggests something) on this site were very critical of the idea.

[Ryan McLaughlin]

I don't think it is a bad idea.  I think we all need to balance enforcement with accessibility and support for the junior game.  I dont recall playing 3 hour 9 hole rounds in high school.  I recently played behind the HS team with my 7 year old and it is just like watching paint dry...there is no urgency.  All I can do is teach my sons the importance of playing ready golf.  I dont care if he is a horrible golfer as long as he has good ettiquette and plays like he has somewhere to go.  We used to have the UCLA men and USC women practice out at Oakmont CC (CA) when I was working there.  I can assure you that if they were holding a group of members up or somehow not practice perfect golf behavior, their coach would hear about it.  My HS golf coach was a PGA professional and he did more than hand us balls on the first tee.  That is far too uncommon these days.  If the science teacher/ football coach wants a few extra bucks in his paycheck well the athletic department is going to make him happy.   

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