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Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Wade, I think 5 is one of the best greens on the course.

Mark,

I really do enjoy all the greens and each has its unique "story".  I think 2,4,5,6,8,9,11,13,15 and 18 are really cool.

#5 was the hole most changed on the course and may have been the most natural setting for a green.  The knoll across the creek where we located the green already existed and after scraping the dirt off it was everything Mike could do to tell Joey (our shaper) "just leave almost everything you see right there!!".

Mike described the green as a potato chip--the green is 9400 sq. ft.  and moves away and right at first, does a little twist in the middle and has a high back right tier and the back left third of the green actually falls away to the left.  The surrounds fall away in the back and short and the green plays pretty "small" actually.

I'll try and find some close ups but 5 is fun to play and putt.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Chris, I found that both the green contouring and the green shape on 5 serve to enhance the strategy from the tee.  Pin location determines how aggressive one has to be on the tee shot.  As Mac said earlier, playing to a left/back pin, I'd rather be in the carry bunker than on the left side of the fairway.  Excellent golf hole.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
One last picture of the "hated 9th" green  :D


Building the back tee on #10.  We have removed a considerable number of trees along the left side:


Several pics of Hole # 11.  Driveable (300 from the tips):

A Lay up just past left bunker and about even with deep fairway bunker on the right would leave this approach:


Left rough looking into the green (before the grasses really began to grow in):


Front right greenside bunker on #11:


Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
I can't draw--obviously--but here is a sketch from my notebook re: 9th green.  The green is pretty close to the version on the right.



I will say this about plans and "original" drawings--I would take them with a grain of salt.  Obviously we had detailed plans (required for planning submission to gov't) but I really can't think of a single hole that didn't have significant changes made.  If in 100 years someone came and looked at the "original" plans and tried to restore the course to what those depict, they would be making huge mistakes and would be "restoring" something neither Mike nor I would have ever desired.

Please understand I am NOT suggesting my course would be worthy of that one day but I know many people who are into restoring ODG courses seem to rely on "discovered" plans and I am pretty sure they might very well not reflect what was built.  Way too much stuff happens in the field and crucial changes happen on every hole.

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Chris,
Your real life take on the ability to restore courses from drawings, is fascinating, and worth a thread of its own.
And your photos of raking out bunkers with bud light bottles is proof that I should work for you, or at the very least, join your club!

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Chris,
Your real life take on the ability to restore courses from drawings, is fascinating, and worth a thread of its own.
And your photos of raking out bunkers with bud light bottles is proof that I should work for you, or at the very least, join your club!

 ;D

Some may claim that the beer explains the contours of the green.  It was a blast doing the work--great people to work with and we did have fun too.   

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
This is a drawing I posted years ago before re-doing the creek crossing on #7.  One idea was to pipe the creek and have a different type of crossing hazard--or none at all.  We ended up eliminating the "sludge" ponds and the crossing creek is about a 4' stream.


Wade Schueneman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Wade, I think 5 is one of the best greens on the course.

5 is a tremendous green.  But 17 is also spectacular and unique.  What is amazing is that all of the greens are at least excellent and yet no two are at all alike.  I love how Chris talks about the unique story that each green tells. 

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0


Hey Wade,

Hole 13 is one of my favorite "stories":

As you know it is a fairly short (297, 330, 339 and 373) hole that plays slightly downhill off the tee to a fairway that slopes slightly right to left and then the approach shot plays slightly uphill to a large green with absolutely no surrounding bunkers.

Here is a (very) crude before and after sketch:




The two left bunkers on the old hole were removed and we placed a bunker on the right side of the fairway.  This is really the preferred side as it leaves a flatter shot from slightly higher ground.  It is a difficult shot to try and get the ball to end up on the right side as the ground slopes pretty well from right to left.  Only a ball landing within yards of the bunker or faded into the hill will stay up on the right.

Instead of leaving the two left bunkers that may grab a ball before going into the rough or trees we removed them and the uneven lies, rough and slightly more uphill approach confront the player on this "safe", left side.

The three small pot bunkers about forty yards short of the green accomplish two main goals:  (1) They draw your eye for the tee shot farther left than they should and encourage a "pull" and (2) when you face the second shot from the left, the bunkers well short do deceive you a bit on the yardage making the green appear far closer.  For a wedge shot this slight "trick", the uphill nature and people's nature to under club combined with the huge false front can turn this seemingly easy hole into a pretty frustrating double very quickly  ;)

The new green is only pinnable on the top tier.  The front is a "green hazard"!  What I really like overall about this hole is I think it plays much fairer and easier for the higher handicap player than before while being much more difficult for the scratch golfer.

The old green was a small, two tiered and surrounded by pretty deep bunkers.  It was a drive and pitch for good players and I have always felt that surrounding a target like before only helped narrow the better player's focus which helped him hit a better shot!  Surrounding a wedge shot green with three white bunkers just provided a "bullseye target". 

Also, the bunkers required a forced carry onto a small target for everyone else.  A poorer player has an impossible time hitting high, soft approaches and if they ended up in one of the bunkers, it was a certain double bogey or worse  :(

Now, the size of the pinnable back area is equal to the entire size of the old green.  There is nothing but grass around the green and a bail out to the right is flat and a relatively simple chip.  A player has numerous options and can certainly run their ball up onto the green.

For the scratch golfer with a wedge hopefully they have played too safe or pulled their shot left and misjudged the approach or spun their ball too much and watched it zoom all the way back down the hill into the fairway.  Once they have made that mistake, it can be several rounds playing deep into the green (or even over) leaving very difficult putts on what they deem a birdie hole.

For the average player, finding himself short of the green in two now instead of being in a bunker they have numerous options.  Putting is the safest almost ensuring a score no worse than a bogey.  A safe putt fifteen to twenty feet past the hole and safely on the top tier should yield a bogey.  Getting "cute" and chipping or pitching in an attempt to get the shot very close can lead to numerous "do overs" :D

Again--easier for the average player, trickier for the better player and tons more options for everyone. 

The small cluster of three bunkers about forty yards short of the green:


Looking from the right at the slope of 13 green:


Wade Schueneman

  • Karma: +0/-0
13 is indeed a very unique and interesting hole.  For example, when the flag is far left, anyone content to make a 5 can take a three wood from the tee and then punch a little shot right of the green.  A conservative chip will then leave a decent look at par.  However, a good player who goes at the flag and misses long, short or left can quickly be starring in a one-man comedy show.  I have seen multiple players take 5+ chips from those spots.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
One of the best fitting holes on the course is #16.  Downhill and sweeping left this hole plays far shorter than its 425 yardage--Driver and a 9-rion to wedge for most.  This view is from about 130 yards out if you hang a ball up on the right hill (rough).  The greenside bunkers are 5-6 yards short of the green--not a good angle at all!



A drop shot par three.  Actually my least favorite hole on the course but we have to get from 16 to 18!  The green is our largest at 10,000 + sq. Ft. though it looks and plays smaller.  Great contours  :D  The hole is 205 from the tips but plays 160 to the middle of the green.  A 7 iron unless it is windy and then anything from a 4 iron to an 8 iron  :o



I actually like the tee shot on 18.  The hole is a beast--480 from the tips (very slightly uphill), 410 from the regular tees.  The fairway is very wide--40+ yards of fairway but tree line on left to creek on the right is more like 60 yards.  Hazard on the left flows into the lake the guards really poor approach shots.  David Noll was 1 up in Atlanta Am before dumping it into the lake from the fairway ?!  He birdied the 19th hole to win anyway :) 

A creek also runs the length of the hole on the right and right of the creek is OB which can come into play.  From the tips the two fairway bunkers are about 290-320 away.  I have toyed with adding a short left bunker in the fairway--forcing a carry of 245 yards or so to make those wanting to hit up the left side where the fairway is "hotter" and there is a bit of a slingshot effect thanks to a slight hump that gives a favorable forward kick.  Still not sure as the hole is difficult enough and most players still have shots from hybrids to five irons--a generous final fairway seems right.

The green is divided almost perfectly into a left and right half by a severe spine--being on the wrong side of the spine will force you to hit a great putt for sure.  There is a neat "bowl" on the left side of the green which is fun too!

View from the back tee watching a player tee off from the 410 tees and the first hole on the left.



Looking from 18 tee across to 1 green:







Back right hole location--you want to be on correct side of the center spine for sure though it is hard to see here  :(