[Sean_A]

You ask some real screwball questions.

Ardmore Ave is far from a major road.

I like the walk from 13 to 14 at Merion but maybe I'm biased, I am from Philly afterall...

2 - 3 and 5 - 6 are much less pleasant but the routing didn't present a crossover for some number of years so I don't know how you attribute that

Wow, not for me.  13-14 is a real drag and I do knock Merion for it. 

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

I agree any walk where you can stop and have a beer is perfect, 13 to 14 rocks or it should do if people enjoy their game. I don't see the road at Merion as being anything other than a minor irritation.

The crossing at New Zealand is OK as the road has good visibility. Walton Heath is dangerous as its a quick road and cars doing 60+ mph are common, making it very difficult to judge. Worplesdon is a pain but you just need to be nippy. Liphook is darn right dangerous and frankly ruins what is a good course.

Scott the first and last crossings on RME are dreadful especially in heavy traffic. It's also a pain when the gates break as once happened to me and a few other players for an hour!

[Mark Pearce]

The crossing at New Zealand is OK as the road has good visibility.

Just about.  It still makes me nervous, though.

Walton Heath is dangerous as its a quick road and cars doing 60+ mph are common, making it very difficult to judge. Worplesdon is a pain but you just need to be nippy.

Strangely I struggled to recall the road crossing at Worplesdon.  Now I do, I recall it being another that makes me nervous.[

Liphook is darn right dangerous and frankly ruins what is a good course.

Liphook is terrifying and proven to be lethal.  If I was local it would be enough to put me off becoming a member of an otherwise wonderful club.  It's bad enough for me but I couldn't imagine my boys being juniors there, I'd worry every time they went to play.

[Sean_A]

Yes, no question the Liphook situation is very dangerous because of the bend.  The club should look into building a tunnel.  Worpy's is pretty bad as well because of the speed of vehicles coming up that rise.  New Zealand's is a complete non-issue though.  A short stroll across a little used narrow road.  Its not ideal, but so far as roads go - its neither here nor there.   

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

So, does the quality or lack thereof in a routing, in the form of disconnects, be it crossovers or crossing roads, lose it's significance when the product of that convoluted routing is the creation exceptional holes ?

While the routing has been called the bones of a golf course, does the creation of outstanding holes, resulting in flaws in the routing, mostly overcome those flaws ?

What other courses, with outstanding holes, have convoluted or disconnected routings ?

[JESII]

No!

If we're going to take away the true genius that created our very best golf courses then what do we have left?

Royal New Kent and most every other Strantz routed course I've heard of.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

I think you have to look at the demands or character of the site.

Given ample room and reasonable terrain, I might, notice, might agree with you.

But, even Sand Hills, with all that acreage, has a little awkwardness as you walk from # 12 green to # 13 tee.

Yet, # 13, a skyline green, is one of my favorite holes.

[JESII]

Haven't been to Sand Hills but if the land had allowed the exact same 13th hole to be placed a little less awkwardly away from the 12th green wouldn't the course gain something? Even if it's only an infinitessimally small amount...as I think the routing flaws at Merion are infinitessimally small negative marks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

And I think they're significant flaws

If it wasn't Merion the course would get ripped for the disconnects

As to Sand Hills and # 13, you have to understand the terrain that produces # 13, you just can't create it somewhere else behind the 12th green.
In addition, you have to connect to # 14, so moving # 13 back would create a disconnect at -# 14

[JESII]

Pat,

I disagree that being Merion exempts it from criticism...the course earned/built its reputation WITH ALL of these same disconnects. Nobody ever walked from 13 green to 14 tee and didn't realize it was 100 yards away (at one point through a building...). It simply rises above, with those warts already accounted for.

Someone asked earlier which course gets ripped for having road crossings or disconnects and you offered Atlantic. Do you feel Atlantic is Merion's equal other than these disconnects? I haven't been there so I'm curious to hear that it's that good.

[David_Elvins]

I wonder if the walk from13 to 14 would be noticed if it was the 9th and 10th holes.  There are an awful lot of courses with awkward walks around the clubhouse between 9 and 10.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I wonder if the walk from13 to 14 would be noticed if it was the 9th and 10th holes.  There are an awful lot of courses with awkward walks around the clubhouse between 9 and 10.

David,

That's true, but, I think walks between 9 and 10 are widely accepted, especially when half-way houses/facilities are in play.

WFW comes immediately to mind.

Ridgewood (NJ - 27 holes)

Sand Hills

[corey miller]

It would seem the walk between #13 and #14 at Merion is also widely accepted.  Certainly I prefer that to a cart ride from #13 to #14 at Bandon Trails  or the walk through the parking lot at Prairie Dunes, or the walk through/near the clubhouse at WFW. Frankly, I would prefer that to any walk that puts the golfer anywhere near a "half-way"house.   

None of the walks nor crossovers at Merion form any basis for an exemption.  I am not a rater, and I don't give "points" based on a bunch of specific categories designed to guide the weaker links within each given group.  I play the game, take in the course, and at the end of the day would form my own "ranking" based solely on where I would prefer to play.  I like to play at Merion very much but could offer you no clue as to how much I downgrade the experience for narrow fairways or walking 100 yards to another tee.

There are a few people who I trust greatly for architecture opinions, from this site Pat, you would be one.  Do you give it an "exemption"?  Actually Pat don't answer that as it is only a question one would ask of people that the questioner thought did not have a clue and needed to be guided into forming a opinion and some sort of consensus ranking/rating based on group think.  Are the par 3's of varied length? Different directions? are you playing toward the west in the evening? are there mini-loops? how is the walk-in-the park? 

For me....I have no clue if I have given an exemption but if you like I can tell you a few other top rated courses that I prefer Merion to and then perhaps you can tell me what kind of exemption I have given.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Corey,

You can't address, let alone answer the question in an architectural vacuum, absent comparisons.

If a course like Atlantic got trashed for some crossovers, why should Merion get a pass, especially if the crossover at Merion is more egregious ?

The question isn't really about Merion, it's about the double standard employed by those who evaluate or rate golf courses.

Years ago I was playing with an NBA referee at WFW.
Over the course of the round we got pretty friendly, so I asked him, why they didn't call walking, palming and a number of infractions.
His first answer was that those guys are so good, that it just looks like they're walking.
So, I said, wait a second, when the play is  run in slo-mo, you can see the guys taking 3,4 and 5 steps to the basket.
He looked at me and said, "Well, we give some guys, the superstars, some latitude.
OK, I can understand that.  I don't agree with it, but, I understand that they're compromising the Micro aspect of the game in order to promote the Macro aspect of the game.  ie, they've transitioned the game from a sporting event to an entertainment event.

Is it the same thing, that Merion enjoys Superstar status and is thus given a pass on a perceived design and playing flaw ?

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