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Frank M

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Re: Perfection and Golf Architecture (CJ) New
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2013, 12:32:09 AM »
Course critiques often times become so detailed and specific, I find myself wondering if these courses people speak of have any sort of identity at all.

I think the "philosophical" difference between courses, or the broad ideas which allow a course to emerge are infinitely more important than the specifics. A course that is seemingly "perfect" in detail, but completely disjointed as a whole, is a course I don't care to play.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 09:51:24 PM by Frank M »

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Perfection and Golf Architecture (CJ)
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2013, 03:46:46 AM »
Ian,

Quote
If I make every fairway wide, I make you feel comfortable. If I make every fairway narrow and the distance between tree lines tight, I make you feel anxious. If I give you five wide open holes in a row and then make the next very tight, I'm screwing with you. If I take you through a dark tree lined path all the way to a vista with no windows to what is ahead, I'm using what's called Compression and Release. The wide open vista is made grander by the experience leading to it.

That helps to clarify. 

I wonder if you want to engender the same emotional response consistently throughout a round, for instance freedom, choice, and enjoyment or on the other hand constriction, direction, and challenge?  One might be good for the recreational golfer and the other for serious competitive golfers.  There's no one answer for all.  Or do you want to vary the emotional response in segments or even hole by hole?  I wonder, for instance whether your five open holes followed by a tight hole is "screwing" with the player in a bad way or a good way.  Seems to me that I've heard that other architects, like Pete Dye like to play (screw) with our minds.  The scenario you describe can certainly engender an emotional response.  Does the response always have to  be on the side of comfort?  Can't it legitimately be on the side of fear, for instance?

Since Streamsong is on my mind these days, let me describe one emotional experience there.  Playing the Blue course I was feeling comfortable, if not always successful because the wide fairways were inviting for my sometimes wayward driving.  That is, until I walked on the 13th tee - the short par 4 - water left, gunch right, narrow fairway, elevated narrow green, and cavernous bunkers.  I literally said out loud to the guy I was playing with: "What the heck is this".  Tom turned the switch.  Was he screwing with me or just changing the pace - freedom to constriction as you would say.  I hesitated on the tee longer there than any other hole and ended up deciding to play it 5i and wedge and parred.  My immediate intuitive reaction was disappointment both because I thought it was a wrenching change of pace in the course and because I couldn't see that I'd ever want to challenge it.  After two weeks of second thoughts I think I've come to the conclusion that it's a pretty neat hole and a slap in the face with some serious decision making on the tee and that was a good thing.  Maybe there are more options that I need to explore. 

David Royer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perfection and Golf Architecture (CJ)
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2013, 06:21:34 AM »
Ian, I just finished reading your comments for what must be the fifth time.  I serve as Green Chairman at my club.  I've shared it with them, asking they read it before our first meeting this March.  As for music, watch Clapton play, listen to Miles Davis or John Coltrane.  There inside the notes is the passion and the art.  Many thanks, Dave

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perfection and Golf Architecture (CJ)
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2013, 09:30:12 AM »
John,

I built a public course min 1999 with lots of width and some pretty strong green contours and expansive short grass around the greens. I was sitting in the bar with a friend after our round and a guy came in and said, "This course is so f@#$@# easy, I can't believe I made so many bogies." I knew him, he was a really good player.

I got the emotional response I was after, he was never out of his comfort zone, but he had work to do figuring out how to play some of the holes.

I know many architects who just design holes. I can't.

I believe this is like writing a book, you have to understand the narrative and the way you would like the reader to discover the material you look to share before you type a single word.
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perfection and Golf Architecture (CJ)
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2013, 09:50:32 AM »
John,

I built a public course min 1999 with lots of width and some pretty strong green contours and expansive short grass around the greens. I was sitting in the bar with a friend after our round and a guy came in and said, "This course is so f@#$@# easy, I can't believe I made so many bogies." I knew him, he was a really good player.

I got the emotional response I was after, he was never out of his comfort zone, but he had work to do figuring out how to play some of the holes.


Ian,
Agree 100%.  When guys can't figure why they made bogey for reasons other than "too much length" they keep coming back.  The worst part though is when those big old guys become emotional with you and start all the hugging .  Is that one of the emotional responses you were seeking? ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perfection and Golf Architecture (CJ) New
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2013, 01:43:52 PM »
David, I'm not very clear on your analogy, but as a guitar player of over 25 years, I will say individual notes don't matter as much to the majority of people as the greater picture those notes convey. Music is all feel and emotion, which to me is a broader understanding of a song. Individual notes are simply the component which make up that picture.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 09:50:24 PM by Frank M »

David Royer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perfection and Golf Architecture (CJ)
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2013, 12:29:47 PM »
Frank, I think what I was trying to say is that there is a soulfulness that emanates from inside the note.  Notes can be replicated but not the emotion from which inspires it.  In my humble opinion.

David Harshbarger

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Re: Perfection and Golf Architecture (CJ)
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2013, 01:00:15 PM »
In general, I like to see a few narrow holes requiring accuracy off the tee, to test a necessary component of a player's game.  But don't demoralize me.

John,

My take on the "enlightened" school of Golf Course Design is that an architect would test this particular component of the game by ensuring there are some holes with narrow landing areas that convey some advantage relative to other landing areas that are more forgiving but disadvantage the subsequent shot.
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright