Dormie Club: What did I miss?

[Mac Plumart]

Different strokes for different folks, that is for sure.

Dormie for me ranks as following on my list of favorite C&C courses...

Sand Hills
Dormie
Cuscowilla
Bandon Trails
Chechessee Creek


There is a pretty big gap between Sand Hills and Dormie. 


Let me throw out two things...

#1--if you are a tried and true naturalist and minamlist, it would totally make sense to me that you can not possibly build a great/very good golf course without great/very good land.  You can make the most use out of the land given, but unless the land is exceptional for golf you will not be able to make an exceptional golf course if you are truly a minimalist/naturalist...as you aren't given an appropriate canvas. 

Is that aboves statement true?  Could this affect C&C designs?  Could C&C gets the most out of the land they are given and still come up with a golf course less than exceptional due to less than exceptional land?


#2--Due to the amazing impact Sand Hills has had on the landscape of golf and golf course architecture are C&C designs given an immediate boost in people's mind?  That is, is it possible their good courses are thought to be very good and their very good courses thought to be great because of the epic impact Sand Hills has had on golf courses and, therefore, people's perception of their genius?

Could this impact people's take on The Dormie?  And other C&C designs?

[Cory Lewis]

3. It has so much width in spots without strategy that it becomes difficult to choose a line. I prefer courses with more purpose-filled shots. I felt like Dormie had more shots where the play is just to hit the ball pretty far and somewhere in the fairway.

Did you take a caddie Jason?  Hopefully you did as we spend a lot of time pointing out the ideal line and if needed can explain why it is the ideal line.  I see strategy off the tee in almost every tee shot.  After watching literally hundreds of drives off every tee, I really feel Dormie is an incredibly strategic course.  

Take 4 as an example.  You can challenge the left side, hit the speed slot and have a short 2nd shot which is incredibly helpful since the green slopes quite a bit from left to right or you can play safe down the right, have a longer shot in and have to use the hill to keep your 2nd on the green when it is firm!

[A.G._Crockett]

I really liked the Dormie Club.  But I would rate it far, far behind both Cuscowilla and We Ko Pa Saguaro, the only other C&C's I've played.  I think it would score lower than those two solely on the routing, which seems oddly "tortured" given the size of the property.  I have (and would again) jump at the change at replays on the other two; just don't feel that way about DC.

[astavrides]

.

[Kyle Harris]

Just because you stand on the tee and see only one way for you to play the hole doesn't mean that others won't stand in the same spot and see an entirely different mode of attack that seems like the only way for them to play the hole.  Strategy s a concept that necessitates variation collectively rather than individually.

+1

-1

One does not need other golfers to conceptualize strategy, one simply needs varying conditions across multiple contexts.

Try it in a pouring rain.

[Ed Oden]

Just because you stand on the tee and see only one way for you to play the hole doesn't mean that others won't stand in the same spot and see an entirely different mode of attack that seems like the only way for them to play the hole.  Strategy s a concept that necessitates variation collectively rather than individually.

+1

-1

One does not need other golfers to conceptualize strategy, one simply needs varying conditions across multiple contexts.

Try it in a pouring rain.

Kyle, I think you missed my point.  Sure, strategy can be conceived individually, whether by varying playing conditions or otherwise.  I would never deny that.  But that isn't the ONLY barometer.  In my opinion, holes are too often tagged as non-strategic because the guy making the claim thinks there is only one way for him to play the hole.  I don't think that is the test.  The key to strategy is the availability of options.  Those options may not evidence themselves on an individual basis, but they will almost always evidence themselves collectively.  If two golfers stand on the 15th tee at Dormie and one sees it as a draw with a hybrid to the fat of the fairway and the other sees a no brainer cut driver and both are right for their game, then that qualifies as a strategic hole in my book even though those two individual golfers may not ever try a different mode of attack. 

[Sean_A]

I agree with Ed.  There is nearly always one best option for any given golfer.  The holes where the best option isn't clear after a few plays are few and far between.  It is often the case that two golfers of similar ability will choose different options even if one guy thinks the choice of the other is loopy.  

I think an inherent problem with the idea of one best strategy for all is people play golf for different reasons.  For instance, some want to grind out the best score and that may include safety play here and there.  I rarely care about score or all that much about the friendly match when it comes to taking on the risk.  I will nearly always go for the shot unless I think my odds of success are very low.  For instance, 3 to 1 against is not nearly bad enough odds for me to turn down a foolish shot - tee hee.

Ciao

[Kris Shreiner]

To be fair, NO ONE has played a finished, proper presentation of what the Dormie Club should be. It has been an anguished, tortured path for the entire project from fairly early on. Despite that, I love the place and its potential is still off the charts with the proper vision and direction the place deserves. Coupled with the wonderful warmth of the surrounding Pinehurst/Southern Pines ambiance, it's as good a golf destination as darn near anywhere.

The ground... and what C and C could have delivered there, properly supported, would impress any GCA lover and golfer in general. With some fire in a proper presentation, that track would be all-world in my view. It really has it all...nice varied set of threes with the 200 plus effort one of the best inland par threes I've ever played, a solid mix of good to very good par fours and a late, uphill stunner among some challenging par fives.

I have to agree with Cory...strategy abounds on DC. If the presentation is on the sluggish side pace-wise, DC can lull one a bit. As is the case with some of Cand C's other offerings, the architecture is so subtly draped over the ground that some firmness really adds to the intrigue.

DC does have some areas for improvement. The vibe of the place is a bit TOO sleepy. A seance could break out at any moment on almost any part of the property. The staff is so polite it is almost painful...loosen up...it's just great golf in the Sandhills of N.C. The half-way hut is one of the scariest propositions going...something out of the set for Deliverance in its crudeness and appearance...though the fare is excellent when you can find someone there. The course presentation, despite some fine staff, suffers due to budget constraints that negated completing the necessary finish elements to elevate the track to the superior status the ground warrants. DC's opening hole could have a little more spice, but many great courses have a somewhat benign start. Hole #18 would benefit from a more elevated tee box. It has an awesome green and surrounds that would be cool to see off in the horizen. Currently, all one views from the sunken tee box is a scrub-infested carry to a non-descript, vague landing area.

DC is a good course with greatness in its bones. It just needs the proper resources and vision to evoilve into the place it should be...a world-beater of a club in a very special place that is Pinehurst.

Mike V.,

Having played Dormie just once(though I've walked the ground several times ) and Hidden Creek twice, I'd give the early nod to DC. That said, I came away with more appreciation for Hidden Creek, after the second serve, than I had felt for it the first play. Hidden Creek has less undulation than DC, and I believe the high notes on DC elevate it over Hidden Creek, though HC is a fine track crafted from rather mundane ground.

Cheers,
Kris

P.S.- I HIGHLY ENCOURAGE all who can to attend Rich Mandell and Co.'s 3rd Symposium for Affordable Golf, Oct. 29-30, 2012. It is first class in every way..and a steal in both cost and memories per dollar spent. A great group convenes and shares their insights and thoughts on all manner of topics; golf in the affordable variety justs happens to be central there. Join the gang...you'll be glad you did!

[A.G._Crockett]

To be fair, NO ONE has played a finished, proper presentation of what the Dormie Club should be. It has been an anguished, tortured path for the entire project from fairly early on. Despite that, I love the place and its potential is still off the charts with the proper vision and direction the place deserves. Coupled with the wonderful warmth of the surrounding Pinehurst/Southern Pines ambiance, it's as good a golf destination as darn near anywhere.

The ground... and what C and C could have delivered there, properly supported, would impress any GCA lover and golfer in general. With some fire in a proper presentation, that track would be all-world in my view. It really has it all...nice varied set of threes with the 200 plus effort one of the best inland par threes I've ever played, a solid mix of good to very good par fours and a late, uphill stunner among some challenging par fives.

I have to agree with Cory...strategy abounds on DC. If the presentation is on the sluggish side pace-wise, DC can lull one a bit. As is the case with some of Cand C's other offerings, the architecture is so subtly draped over the ground that some firmness really adds to the intrigue.

DC does have some areas for improvement. The vibe of the place is a bit TOO sleepy. A seance could break out at any moment on almost any part of the property. The staff is so polite it is almost painful...loosen up...it's just great golf in the Sandhills of N.C. The half-way hut is one of the scariest propositions going...something out of the set for Deliverance in its crudeness and appearance...though the fare is excellent when you can find someone there. The course presentation, despite some fine staff, suffers due to budget constraints that negated completing the necessary finish elements to elevate the track to the superior status the ground warrants. DC's opening hole could have a little more spice, but many great courses have a somewhat benign start. Hole #18 would benefit from a more elevated tee box. It has an awesome green and surrounds that would be cool to see off in the horizen. Currently, all one views from the sunken tee box is a scrub-infested carry to a non-descript, vague landing area.

DC is a good course with greatness in its bones. It just needs the proper resources and vision to evoilve into the place it should be...a world-beater of a club in a very special place that is Pinehurst.

Mike V.,

Having played Dormie just once(though I've walked the ground several times ) and Hidden Creek twice, I'd give the early nod to DC. That said, I came away with more appreciation for Hidden Creek, after the second serve, than I had felt for it the first play. Hidden Creek has less undulation than DC, and I believe the high notes on DC elevate it over Hidden Creek, though HC is a fine track crafted from rather mundane ground.

Cheers,
Kris

P.S.- I HIGHLY ENCOURAGE all who can to attend Rich Mandell and Co.'s 3rd Symposium for Affordable Golf, Oct. 29-30, 2012. It is first class in every way..and a steal in both cost and memories per dollar spent. A great group convenes and shares their insights and thoughts on all manner of topics; golf in the affordable variety justs happens to be central there. Join the gang...you'll be glad you did!

Terrific post.  Thanks for this; seems like the old days of GCA.com.

[Jason Thurman]

3. It has so much width in spots without strategy that it becomes difficult to choose a line. I prefer courses with more purpose-filled shots. I felt like Dormie had more shots where the play is just to hit the ball pretty far and somewhere in the fairway.

Did you take a caddie Jason?  Hopefully you did as we spend a lot of time pointing out the ideal line and if needed can explain why it is the ideal line.  I see strategy off the tee in almost every tee shot.  After watching literally hundreds of drives off every tee, I really feel Dormie is an incredibly strategic course. 

Take 4 as an example.  You can challenge the left side, hit the speed slot and have a short 2nd shot which is incredibly helpful since the green slopes quite a bit from left to right or you can play safe down the right, have a longer shot in and have to use the hill to keep your 2nd on the green when it is firm!

Cory,

No caddie for us. I played with my mother, who’s dealing with a case of plantar fasciitis. Since we were walking No. 2 the next day, we took a cart for her sake.

Replaying the fourth in my head and looking at photos, is the tee shot down the left really any more dangerous than the tee shot down the right? I think there’s a small bunker down the left, but you’d have to pull one pretty hard to find it. With the way the fairway slopes, isn’t the play really just to hit down the middle and let it kick a little left?

Like a lot of other holes there, it seems like a tee shot where the fairway is very wide and the play is down the middle, give or take a few yards. I just don’t find that particularly interesting. Not to say that Dormie isn’t an interesting course, because it is. I just think it’s not as interesting as it could be, particularly from the tee.

[John Shimp]

I havent known too many "average hitters" with their drivers carrying it 250-260 in the case of Jason and 270 in the case of dave stewart.  Boys those are big knocks at Dormie Club as the ball rolls well.  Dave from 6500 yds you must have worn out your lob wedge.  I fly my driver 235 and it gets out there 240 to 270 depending on hills/firmness/etc. i found dormie very manageable from 6900 the times ive played.   It takes good approaches to stop the ball near the hole there as there are a lot of big greens that when good play quite lively.  Its not a hard driving course and it plays less than its yardage.