[David Bartman]

Ronald,

"First, I am up to 10 holes in one .."

Reply #5 by David

But how did Mark B know about the 9? I know Mark seems to know everything, but I didn't realize he kept track of everyone's aces!

-----

David, what was it like to play against Danny Lee? Are you surprised he hasn't made much noise since his Am win?

If you win the Mid-Am, can I caddy for you at Augusta?

Ronald

I think I have a player profile on Amateurgolf.com that lists holes in one.  

George

It was pretty boring actually, he didn't say 10 words and I think 8 of them were "good".  
I was told that he changed his swing after the Am before turning pro, that has always baffled me.  I would much rather see how succussful I can be with my current swing and then evaluate than revamping prior to even turning pro.   The guy just won the western Am, finished 20th in a tour event and then won the US AM, and changes his swing?  I was very impressed with the quality and variety of his shots around the green, most 18 year old kids don't have that at 18.

I'm injured and failed to qualify for the mid am by a couple shots this year, I can't even begin to explain how frustrating it is to be on a golf course right now, my body wont let me hit shots that used to be simple for me.  My short game is still top notch, at Riviera on Friday I shot 75 and hit only 4 fairways and 6 greens.   I'm saying winning the Mid-am which is a goal of mine, is seemingly getting further away.  If I were to win, I can put you on the list of caddies but I doubt I would get past 1 or 2 on the list

[David Bartman]

David, any overseas golf, competitive or golf trip w/freinds? 

Since PGA is still recent, have you played many Pete Dye courses, and your favorites?

Also, do you separate your golf tastes in architecture-design from competitive venues to rounds for pure enjoyment.  Any comments on that aspect of your preferences?

Yup, like Colin states, we can come up with a question to follow every answer! 

I played the Asian Tour, so I played in Thailand, Philippines, India, Malaysia, China, Korea, Japan, Singapore, and Indonesia. 

I have played in Scotland with Dad - Troon, Turnburry, Western Gales, TOC, Carnoustie, Kingsbarns, TNC, Jubilee, and North Berwick ( I would have loved to play Muirfield )

Pete Dye -

I've played many

   Arizona State University (Karsten Golf Course) - Tempe [1]
   Carmel Valley Ranch Golf Resort - Carmel Valley Ranch [3]
   Carlton Oaks Country Club (Dunes Course)[4] - Santee
   La Quinta Resort and Club (Dunes Course) - La Quinta [5]
   La Quinta Resort and Club (Mountain Course) - La Quinta [6]
   PGA West (Stadium Course) - La Quinta [7]
   The Westin Mission Hills Resort & Spa (South Course) - Rancho Mirage [10]
   Trump National Golf Club in Los Angeles
   PGA Golf Club (The Dye Course) - Port St. Lucie
   TPC at Sawgrass (Stadium Course) - Ponte Vedra Beach [17]
   Brickyard Crossing - Speedway [26]
   TPC of Louisiana - Avondale [35]
   Harbour Town Golf Links – Hilton Head Island [47]
   Kiawah Island Golf Resort (The Ocean Course) - Kiawah Island [48]
   Heron Point (formerly Sea Marsh) - Hilton Head Island [49]
   Whistling Straits (Irish Course) - Haven [55]
   Whistling Straits (Straits Course) - Haven [56]
   Blackwolf Run (River Course) - Kohler [57]
   Blackwolf Run (Meadow Valleys Course) - Kohler [58]

Crooked Stick Golf Club - Carmel [67] Crooked Stick Golf Club

Oak Tree Golf Club - Edmond [78]
Oak Tree Country Club - Edmond [79]
   The Honors Golf Club - Ooltewah
   The Stonebridge Ranch Country Club - McKinney [82]
   The Austin Country Club - Austin[83]
 
My favorites are Harbor Town, Blackwolf Run River, The Honors Club

I haven't played Austin CC but might play in the Harvey Penick Invitational this year. 

I think part of understanding GCA is what different designs mean to different skill levels.  I think its possible to design a course that a lesser skilled player can enjoy that can still hold the interest of a top player, although with technology increasing the distance discrepancy between the two levels its getting more and more difficult.   I usually have fun on the golf course now that its not my living, so I can have fun on most venues but I do certainly appreciate a challenge. 

[David Bartman]

David:

Thanks for participating!

1.  Best golf trip?
2.  Your top 10 courses?
3.  Any unique preferences with respect to design and/or conditioning for competitive play?
4.  Best area for golf you have visited?
5.  Dodgers, Angels or another team?
6.  Worst traffic experience?
7.  LA or Palm Springs for golf?

1. The best gofl trip I have ever taken was with my dad to Scotland about 5 years ago, for his 65th Birthday I took him to scotland.
2. I assume you mean the top 10 that I have played - Augusta, Carnoustie, Riviera, LACC, Pebble Beach, Merion, Pinehurst #2, Muirfield Village, Point O' Woods , TOC
3. For competitive play I am for hard, fast and penal.  Thinking and being able to recover are two things younger players don't have to do much of these days.  Its becoming a lost art.
4. Augusta, Augusta CC, Augusta National and Sage Valley is a pretty good stop, I haven't been to Long Island but I would imagine that is the best.  Philly with Pine Valley also
5. Dodgers, Lakers, Kings, and UCLA
6. I was driving four guys in high school to California State Am qualifying, I made a left turn and someone ran the light and hit my back bumper, tearing it off, we went spinning towards a phone pole but stopped short.   Luckily no one hurt, bungied the bumper on the car and 2 of us ( including myself ) qualified for the state Am the next day. 
7. Palm Springs easily, especially if you can get on Madison,and Quarry

[David Bartman]

David having been a pro I'm curious as to what you think about this statement:

 In terms of playing levels the difference between a 36 hcp and a scratch player is about equal to the difference between a scratch player and a successful tour pro.

I'm overlaying my past tennis life onto golf in saying this and have to laugh every time I hear someone say wow you're a 1,2,3,4,5,6 hcp you're almost pro. Do you think that's about accurate or do you think the difference between scratch and pro is much greater?

You're a decent Google researcher, I'm concerned about the fact that you live single amongst a state full of California girls and your children are unaccounted for.

[Jason Topp]

David:


2. I assume you mean the top 10 that I have played - Augusta, Carnoustie, Riviera, LACC, Pebble Beach, Merion, Pinehurst #2, Muirfield Village, Point O' Woods , TOC
 
7. Palm Springs easily, especially if you can get on Madison,and Quarry

Point o Woods is the stunner in your response to number 2.  I have not played it but have never heard great things other than it hosted the Western Am.  Care to comment?


I travelled to LA with a friend in March one year.  We spent a couple of days in LA and then a couple in Palm Springs and the weather was so much better in Palm Springs that I have to agree.  What do you think of Stoneagle or The Plantation?  Palms or Plantation?  PGA West v. any of the above?

[David Bartman]

Point O' Woods -  First of all the Western Am and the long drive in, was like the Masters of Amateur Golf. Secondly,  I am sucker for tall tree lined holes with creeks and doglegs.   I thought it as a great test of golf and obviously I was playing it in terrific condition.  I was also 20 and 21 when I played it so my memory might not actually reflect how I would feel if I were to go back and play it today.  At the time, it was my favorite course. 

Try Palm Desert June- September and you will choose LA for weather, unless you are from the Sun.

Stoneagle is a great match play course, not sure about stroke play there, I prefer The Plantation.  I have never played the palms but know that they have a ton of great gambling games for low handicappers.  I like PGA West Nicklaus Tournament, some really fun risk/reward shots for the better golfer, Stadium Course , has become playable with technology catching up with Mr. Dye, the removal of the brush between the holes is also a big help.  If you get a chance to play Madison Club or the Quarry they in my opinion the two best courses in the desert. 

[Ronald Montesano]

I'm going to chime in and thank David for all his responses. For a guy who didn't really know what we had suckered him into, he is doing a stellar job. Top notch, David.

[David Bartman]

I'm going to chime in and thank David for all his responses. For a guy who didn't really know what we had suckered him into, he is doing a stellar job. Top notch, David.

Lucky its slow at work

[William_G]

I'm going to chime in and thank David for all his responses. For a guy who didn't really know what we had suckered him into, he is doing a stellar job. Top notch, David.

+1

[Stephen Davis]

David:

Thanks for participating!

1.  Best golf trip?
2.  Your top 10 courses?
3.  Any unique preferences with respect to design and/or conditioning for competitive play?
4.  Best area for golf you have visited?
5.  Dodgers, Angels or another team?
6.  Worst traffic experience?
7.  LA or Palm Springs for golf?

1. The best gofl trip I have ever taken was with my dad to Scotland about 5 years ago, for his 65th Birthday I took him to scotland.
2. I assume you mean the top 10 that I have played - Augusta, Carnoustie, Riviera, LACC, Pebble Beach, Merion, Pinehurst #2, Muirfield Village, Point O' Woods , TOC
3. For competitive play I am for hard, fast and penal.  Thinking and being able to recover are two things younger players don't have to do much of these days.  Its becoming a lost art.
4. Augusta, Augusta CC, Augusta National and Sage Valley is a pretty good stop, I haven't been to Long Island but I would imagine that is the best.  Philly with Pine Valley also
5. Dodgers, Lakers, Kings, and UCLA
6. I was driving four guys in high school to California State Am qualifying, I made a left turn and someone ran the light and hit my back bumper, tearing it off, we went spinning towards a phone pole but stopped short.   Luckily no one hurt, bungied the bumper on the car and 2 of us ( including myself ) qualified for the state Am the next day.  
7. Palm Springs easily, especially if you can get on Madison,and Quarry

A ton of great resoonses! You had me on everything up until this point. Fight On!  

[David Davis]

David, reply #28 seems to be missing your thoughts...or am I mistaken?

[Mike Benham]

As someone with vast amateur and professional experience, does the golf ball go to far?

Traditional or long-putter?

[George Pazin]

... If I were to win, I can put you on the list of caddies but I doubt I would get past 1 or 2 on the list

So you're saying there's a chance, I hear ya.

Best of luck in all future competitions.

[Sean Leary]

David,

Obviously you have benefitted from regaining your amateur status. In your opinion, is there a level where someone should not be able to regain their amateur status?

[David Egan]

Amateur status should be like virginity - once it's gone, it's gone.

[Sean Leary]

Amateur status should be like virginity - once it's gone, it's gone.

I understand this point of view, but don't agree. I struggle however with where the cutoff should be, which is why I asked David his perspective.

FWIW, I like hearing David's perspective here because most REALLY good players think the way that he does about architecture, and I think that is good to provide that balance here....

[Jeff Fortson]

Amateur status should be like virginity - once it's gone, it's gone.

I understand this point of view, but don't agree. I struggle however with where the cutoff should be, which is why I asked David his perspective.

FWIW, I like hearing David's perspective here because most REALLY good players think the way that he does about architecture, and I think that is good to provide that balance here....

Obviously, I am biased on this as I am a reinstated amateur myself, but I agree with Sean here.  The reasons are many, but my main reason is that the game is better off keeping good players involved in the game competitively.  If it was a death sentence there would be thousands of quality tournament golfers that would simply hang it up forever after failing to make it as a touring pro, and I think that detracts from the competitive game.  There are plenty of "virgins" (trust fund types) in the amateur ranks that have never worked a real day in their lives, play and practice golf daily, and play a competitive schedule of 25+ tournaments a year.  What makes them different than a guy that played the mini tours and maybe snuck in a few top tier pro events?  And, to be clear, I don't begrudge anyone that has that life.  God bless them.  I think most of us would do some crazy things if a genie offered us that in return. 

As for the cutoff?  I think if you've held full-exempt status on one of the major tours (PGA Tour, Euro Tour, etc.) for more than two years or have won at that level you should be black listed.  At that point you you have reached a level that well surpasses the amateur game.

Just my opinion of course.

Jeff F.

[David Bartman]

I agree with Jeff that keeping every former pro out of amateur golf would be bad for the game, most of us, love to compete, have regular jobs and are indeed an amateur again.   We also have a love for the game and I would guess that a vast majority are active at our clubs and in our local golf organizations, which only betters the game itself.

I would put the standard on multiple years maintaining status on PGA Tour, certainly winning on the PGA Tour ought to keep you from getting your amateur status back.

Although the USGA didn't feel this way.  There was a man more than a few years back who got back his amateur status and he was a former tour winner.  Dillard Pruitt?  I think he played in a Walker Cup as well.

Gary Nicklaus got his amateur status back and just played in the US Am, he lost in a playoff in a pga tour event and was a pro for 12+ years.  Multiple years on the PGA Tour. 

[David Bartman]

David having been a pro I'm curious as to what you think about this statement:

 In terms of playing levels the difference between a 36 hcp and a scratch player is about equal to the difference between a scratch player and a successful tour pro.

I'm overlaying my past tennis life onto golf in saying this and have to laugh every time I hear someone say wow you're a 1,2,3,4,5,6 hcp you're almost pro. Do you think that's about accurate or do you think the difference between scratch and pro is much greater?

You're a decent Google researcher, I'm concerned about the fact that you live single amongst a state full of California girls and your children are unaccounted for.

Not sure how my response didn't make it so I will try again

The difference between a 36 and scratch is certainly a larger gap from a scratch to a pro but not by a large margin and certainly not by someone who is just starting to play who has room for improvement. 

A touring pro that makes a living playing golf is very different than a scratch, the main difference is that they can usually go to a new course that they have never seen in their life an break par the first time they play it.  While a scratch player usually has zero chance on a course that is just reasonably challenging.

Just look for example at course ratings, the average course rating of a PGA Tour course is probably around 75 and the par is probably around 71 maybe a bit higher.  That being said a scratch golfer , if they play reasonably well, would shoot around 75 on a tour course.  Well we all know that to be competitive on the PGA Tour your have to shoot around 70, so that is a five shot differential per round. 

The other thing to consider is that most scratch players are excellent putters and chippers, and usually get a lot out of their ball striking, so their room for improvement is limited.  So they are 5-7 shots off a solid pga tour players per round , with little room for improvement.  In that, lies the gap between a solid pro and a scratch player.

I love playing with college kids that are thinking about turning pro,  when healthy I am a pretty good barometer for seeing where you are.  If you can't beat me regularly, you better have a some big holes in your game to work on to improve, otherwise the potential pro has very little chance of making it. 

[David Davis]

[/quote]


Not sure how my response didn't make it so I will try again

The difference between a 36 and scratch is certainly a larger gap from a scratch to a pro but not by a large margin and certainly not by someone who is just starting to play who has room for improvement. 

A touring pro that makes a living playing golf is very different than a scratch, the main difference is that they can usually go to a new course that they have never seen in their life an break par the first time they play it.  While a scratch player usually has zero chance on a course that is just reasonably challenging.

Just look for example at course ratings, the average course rating of a PGA Tour course is probably around 75 and the par is probably around 71 maybe a bit higher.  That being said a scratch golfer , if they play reasonably well, would shoot around 75 on a tour course.  Well we all know that to be competitive on the PGA Tour your have to shoot around 70, so that is a five shot differential per round. 

The other thing to consider is that most scratch players are excellent putters and chippers, and usually get a lot out of their ball striking, so their room for improvement is limited.  So they are 5-7 shots off a solid pga tour players per round , with little room for improvement.  In that, lies the gap between a solid pro and a scratch player.

I love playing with college kids that are thinking about turning pro,  when healthy I am a pretty good barometer for seeing where you are.  If you can't beat me regularly, you better have a some big holes in your game to work on to improve, otherwise the potential pro has very little chance of making it. 
[/quote]

David, very interesting point, difference is 20-28 shots over the course of a single tournament. I certainly wouldn't disagree with that if it were not for the fact that there are margins that large between the pros in the same tournament. I doubt a scratch amateur could step in under that kind of pressure with all those people watching on a new course and even come close to 75. My home course has a CR rating of almost 75 and I've yet to see a scratch player not from our club who didn't know the course break 80 and that's with no pressure except them knowing that I know they couldn't do it and not getting to enjoy a night of free drinks ha ha...

Thanks for the your answer though, i think with no pressure in a control environment you are right. Although I know of one GCA'er that played a casual round with Hendrik Stenson and watched him make 9 birdies in 9 holes I believe.

[David Bartman]

Breaking 80!  gets you free drinks

Where is this place? 

[David Davis]

de Noordwijkse, come to Amsterdam and I'll show you. Although after reading your story it would be quite naive of me to think a former successful tour pro wouldn't break 80, I've not crossed that bridge yet, although I did have a former Scottish Amateur champion shoot 80 on me in low wind conditions, and a senior tour pro from the US fail to break 90 in windforce 6 two weeks ago. If the wind is at 6 or above, sure I'd make that bet with you as well David. If you don't break 80 it won't cost you a thing, except for the fact that you leave the course that day knowing you didn't. Break 80 and I'm eating my words along with the bar tab....

[Jeff Fortson]

David having been a pro I'm curious as to what you think about this statement:

 In terms of playing levels the difference between a 36 hcp and a scratch player is about equal to the difference between a scratch player and a successful tour pro.

I'm overlaying my past tennis life onto golf in saying this and have to laugh every time I hear someone say wow you're a 1,2,3,4,5,6 hcp you're almost pro. Do you think that's about accurate or do you think the difference between scratch and pro is much greater?

You're a decent Google researcher, I'm concerned about the fact that you live single amongst a state full of California girls and your children are unaccounted for.

Not sure how my response didn't make it so I will try again

The difference between a 36 and scratch is certainly a larger gap from a scratch to a pro but not by a large margin and certainly not by someone who is just starting to play who has room for improvement.  

A touring pro that makes a living playing golf is very different than a scratch, the main difference is that they can usually go to a new course that they have never seen in their life an break par the first time they play it.  While a scratch player usually has zero chance on a course that is just reasonably challenging.

Just look for example at course ratings, the average course rating of a PGA Tour course is probably around 75 and the par is probably around 71 maybe a bit higher.  That being said a scratch golfer , if they play reasonably well, would shoot around 75 on a tour course.  Well we all know that to be competitive on the PGA Tour your have to shoot around 70, so that is a five shot differential per round.  

The other thing to consider is that most scratch players are excellent putters and chippers, and usually get a lot out of their ball striking, so their room for improvement is limited.  So they are 5-7 shots off a solid pga tour players per round , with little room for improvement.  In that, lies the gap between a solid pro and a scratch player.

I love playing with college kids that are thinking about turning pro,  when healthy I am a pretty good barometer for seeing where you are.  If you can't beat me regularly, you better have a some big holes in your game to work on to improve, otherwise the potential pro has very little chance of making it.  

David,

As a former mini-tour player myself, I have often told people that you if aren't a legitimate +5, and can travel with that +5, don't waste your money on Q-School.  I agree with what you wrote above 100%.


Jeff F.

[Scott Warren]

David,

Funny that as your name was brought to my attention through this thread, I was looking at some material I picked up recently at Prairie Dunes and saw that you won two major amateur events there some distance apart (15-20 years?).

Would be interested in your thoughts on the course from an elite player's perspective and any interesting things that changed about the course between those two tournaments.

[David Bartman]

Scott I won the 2005 Trans Miss Amateur at PD.  That was the only time that I played in a tournament there.  I had played PD once before about 10 years before in 1995. 

I didn't notice any changes in the course in those 10 years, but I do remember that for a short course it required me to hit almost every club in my bag.  That is what I really enjoyed about the course.  That and the winning of course

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