News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


TEPaul

Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2012, 01:06:23 AM »
David Moriarty:

# 23 contains some really good historical stuff I have never read before. That is some excellent research and presentation on your part. I hope you can find its like and do the same kind of presentation on some other historical subjects on here such as the architectural history of Merion 1909-1912 or else amend your contentions about it to something as logical and factually supportable as the ramifications of the site selection of the 1898 US Open.

By the way, Myopia has been dying to know some of the detailed ramifications of how they went about getting some of those early US Opens. I know they do not have that information you just put on here. So, what do you want me to do with them about crediting or attributing it to you with them? I have a very close collaborative research relationship with them over the last six or so years. Would you like me to include you in that or do you have some problem with that too I don't know about at this time?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 01:13:27 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2012, 06:49:05 AM »
1921 US Open was held at Columbia CC in Chevy Chase, MD and I understand that much of the course is unchanged.  There apparently were some hole changes when they lost some land to a utility company or something like that but the membership is proud to say that they have the original pushup greens.  They had claimed that their 16th was the inspiration for the 12th at ANGC but that has been pretty much been proven to be a myth.  Overall it is a really interesting course on a very small piece of property. 

Jerry
The routing is unchanged, but the bunkering is quite a bit different. When I played the course in the 80s it was very close, bunkering wise, to the Open course. Unfortunately someone went in there around 2000 and redesigned the bunkering, and gave it more modern flair, and flair is a poor choice of words. They butchered this classic course. I am glad to see someone has cleaned all that up, and now the course does have proper vintage bunkering, but with very few exceptions the position and placement of the bunkers is completely different than 1921. For example the famous 16th had no bunkers, now there are at least two, and the green is completely different. The most glaring omission is the huge cross bunker at #5, which was Columbia's version of Hells Half Acre. I'm not sure when that was removed because it was gone when I played the course.

TEPaul

Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2012, 09:26:33 AM »
"Which of these courses is the least altered since it held its Open(s)? On which course would I most be able to sense what it was like back then? Were any of the courses that held multiple early Opens, such as Myopia, altered significantly between Opens?"


Mark:

Of the old US Open courses I'm aware of or have seen, in my opinion, the most unaltered would be Myopia. It truly is like going back in time and that does not just involve the golf course.

As for how much Myopia changed in the span of its four Opens in ten years (1898-1908) it's sort of hard to say in its last three Opens, but in that span I think Leeds basically just kept adding bunkers. Of course it was largely changed between 1898 and 1901 because in 1898 the Open was played on a nine hole course referred to as Leed's Long Nine.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2012, 10:53:45 AM »
TEP
Where did you get your info?

TEPaul

Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2012, 11:35:11 AM »
I got my info from Myopia and at Myopia. I've been in contact with the historians of the club for a about 5-6 years now. It is one of my clubs from the original list on the USGA Architecture Archive. Matter of fact, one of them who is now retired saw an email from you that you sent to the club apparently offering your services about something and he called me right up and said: "Who the hell is this guy?" I was hoping he would never read GOLFCLUBATLAS.com but apparently you made him aware of it and he read it. To his question my answer was: "I could tell you G, but it might be something you would not want to know or appreciate." He just said, "OK fine" and that was the end of it. This was around the same time you seemed to take an unusual interest in the historical details of a number old clubs I've had long-term relationships with to do with their histories, such as Pine Valley, Merion and Myopia.  ;)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 11:41:33 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2012, 11:44:00 AM »
Dave:

Are you speaking to me about Glen View? If so, yes, I have. Wayne and I did quite a bit of consulting and collaborating with Glen View some years ago when we were working on the Flynn book. We went there and they came here. They're good guys.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2012, 11:50:22 AM »
Dave:

Are you speaking to me about Glen View? If so, yes, I have. Wayne and I did quite a bit of consulting and collaborating with Glen View some years ago when we were working on the Flynn book. We went there and they came here. They're good guys.

Tom,

I would be curious to hear your thoughts on the course as well and any thoughts you might have on Dave Esler's work on the course about a decade ago.
H.P.S.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2012, 07:43:52 PM »
1912-CCB

Original site was along Nottingham Terrace, adjacent to Delaware Park. Lost that site to 1902 World's Fair (The one where McKinley was shot.)

Second site was at corner of Bailey and Main on Buffalo/Amherst border. Course was built, then Travis was brought in to Openize it (much more than the Rees Jones of his day!)

Donald Ross was brought in after the 1912 to improve the course. Reality set in that the city was moving eastward and new property was purchased in early 1920s, the second (I believe, after Merion) quarry course built in the USA. US Open site sold to city of Buffalo.

Re-christened Grover Cleveland, it hosted the 1926 USGA Public Links (still the only site to host both Open and Pub Links championships.)

In the 1940s, I believe, Veteran's Administration built hospital on southern end of course, eliminating a number of holes, including the beginning of the only Par 6 hole in US Open history.

Grover will host the ECAC this July to commemorate 100 years since Johnny Mac's 2nd consecutive US Open victory. http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/erie-county-amateur-championships-wnypga-family-golf-free-lessons/
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

TEPaul

Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2012, 09:45:02 AM »
Dave:

That's right---we were there for a Flynn related event. Seems like a long time ago now. David Essler spoke at the event and so did we. It is an interesting course---and a sort of complicated architectural history. I didn't know Macdonald/Whigam told them not to build there. When was that? Do you remember the name of the rather famous Chicago landscape architect who did some significant work there? I think Glen View was also the home club of Chick Evans, right?

Kevin Robinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2012, 11:11:21 AM »
An unusual aspect/story about the remaining nine-holer at Philly Cricket Club is that several years ago, when I was employed as an assistant golf professional at Yeamans Hall in Charleston, a younger member there, from a very old Philadelphia family, told me that the Philly Cricket Club does not actually own the land that the old nine holer sits upon, but rather leases it in perpetuity from his family.
I had no reason to doubt his story, and only thought about it again while reading this thread.

TEPaul

Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2012, 11:22:58 AM »
Kevin Robinson:

That would make sense, particularly if the man you spoke with is from the Woodward family (if the Woodward family is on his maternal side of course he may have another last name).

Some generations ago the Woodwards bought a ton of land in Chestnut Hill and built something like 400 houses on it. The Woodwards today still own them and rent them all.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 11:27:04 AM by TEPaul »

Kevin Robinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2012, 11:39:34 AM »
Indeed, Tom, it was Charles (Chuck) Woodward. Really nice guy, his family own one of the original "cottages" at Yeamans Hall.

TEPaul

Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2012, 01:19:48 PM »
"Chick Evans grew up playing at Edgewater Golf Club, and subsequently joined both Glen View and Exmoor."


Dave:

I would certainly hope Chick Evans was a significant member of Glen View because the club had a specific room in the clubhouse just dedicated to him and some of his memorablia.

But you never know the extent some of these clubs might go to create lore and legends and myths and mythology. We thank the likes of MacWood and Moriarty for pointing out that Hugh Wilson does not deserve any credit or the credit given him for being responsible for the original routing and design of Merion East. We have recently come across some clues that may indicate that Hugh Wilson may never have existed at all.

It is possible, or perhaps I should say, not impossible, that he was simply a fictitious character created merely to promote the inherently independent ethos of the club, or perhaps by some from Merion in the beginning to create perhaps more interesting lore, more grandiose legends or even semi-humorous hoaxes intended to confuse most historians and identify only the very best historical analysts a century or so later. It takes only the very best imaginable historian to identify these things and to be able to explain why everyone who has read the entire history of Merion East for a hundred years has misread and misunderstood what really happened a century ago.  ??? ;)

I think I may now try to convince Merion to rewrite their architectural history assigning all architectural credit to Macdonald and Whigam for routing and designing Merion East for MCC and being the "driving force" behind it all, and that there probably never was a Hugh Wilson and his member committee. As to who constructed it to Macdonald/Whigam plan if there was no Hugh Wilson, it appears we need to find a constructor and it very well may be Fred Pickering, the man the records show actually was hired by MCC to construct the course to the routing and design plan.

Matter of fact, Fred Pickering's history at Merion is well documented as being one affected by the sauce of Johnny Barleycorn. It's perhaps logical to assume that it may've been Pickering who during a liquor induced hallucination dreamed up Hugh Wilson and his committee and in a moment of mischievious mirth, MCC just went with that story.

Oh, and what about HH Barker? Did he have something to do with routing and designing Merion East too? Since there has never been any actual indication of that in any of Merion's records or in its archives, except perhaps from some non-golfing inconsequential real estate agent out to steal the thunder of that greatest of all American financiers, Horatio Gates Lloyd, by planting some inaccurate newspaper reports in November 1910, how about if I try to convince Merion to rewrite their architectural history of 1909-1912) to assign HH Barker the same kind of credit that little girl on the old "Shake n' Bake" chicken commericial says she should get for producing the chicken dinner-----eg "An Aah hept."  
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 02:48:13 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2012, 03:14:19 PM »
"I believe Daniel Burnham (he of the "make no little plans" quote) is the architect you're thinking of,"


Dave:

That's the one. I believe he planted some trees there done in the modus and style of a sort of landscape architecture "allee" that perhaps were not that ideal for golf holes.  ;)

I did do some of what Tom MacWood would call "independent expert research" on the guy when I got home and you're right, he was a most interesting guy. Maybe I'm "misremembering"  ;) this, but I vaguely recall he pioneered some LA designs with something like cemeteries!   ::)  A native Chicagoan, right?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 03:18:46 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2012, 05:11:09 PM »
This is what Bernard Darwin said about Glen View and Onwentsia:

“The golf at Glen View [another nearby course] -- though pretty and amusing, with much pitching over a ubiquitous stream -- has no very tremendous attributes. Glen View is far better golf than Onwentsia. I had known the name of Onwentsia so well and so long that I confess the course came as rather a shock to me. It is a charming club and, as I am told, the Country Club of the West. Then words will make its best epitaph, for assuredly it will never get to heaven on its golfing qualities.”

And speaking of Edgewater & Barker, although he had nothing to do with the design ironically Barker does have an indirect connection to Edgewater. Harry Turpie, the club's first pro and the pro who served during Evans' formative years, constructed New Orleans CC to Barker's design. I'm pretty sureTurpie laid out the original nine at Edgewater.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 05:14:44 PM by Tom MacWood »

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2012, 09:53:22 PM »
Mark:

We did do work at Onwentsia, as noted above, but it would not be correct to call that a "restoration".  We considered restoration, but the U.S. Open layout of 1900 was only 5500 yards and there were a lot of square greens and other unappealing features ... the course had been changed considerably since then, and the members wanted to move a bit further forward instead of taking it back.  The clubhouse is wonderful and still provides the time-warp feeling Tim Cronin mentioned, but the golf course, not so much.

I would say that Myopia Hunt Club or Newport C.C. probably feels most like a turn-of-the-century U.S. Open course today.  Or the remaining nine at Philly Cricket.

Tom, you did your work so well I couldn't tell the difference between yesterday and today. Perhaps that because, the first time I visited, a U.S. Open trophy was in the dining room, part of the club's 100th anniversary of the Open celebration. Was the old teepee still up when you were there?
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer