Can designs that flaunt the rules be good

[ward peyronnin]

Brent

I had you pegged for a flaunter after witnessing you packing the cute little mandolin case with you wherever you went

[David Cronheim]

An issue we've had at my home club (and one that I think is fairly common) is the marking of a lateral hazard this is not completely visible from the tee. If you don't have evidence of the ball going in the hazard you're supposed to play it as stroke and distance, but hardly anyone does. It's not a major issue, but it's a common issue many courses. People often merely assume their ball went in the hazard and drop it nearby.

[Brent Hutto]

ward,

The sad reality of the situation is that I actually play golf better than I play mandolin, although I must say I'm improving at the latter but not the former. That said, after the locker-room attendant at Secession assigned the mandolin its very own locker for the day I almost asked Z. for membership information. It's more fun flaunting when someone goes out of his way to give due respect...

[J Sadowsky]

Tom -

That's the problem with the 17th at the TPC in Ponte Vedra. An exciting, fun hole, but if you can't carry the water, there is no way to finish the hole. Which is a problem in posting a sccore for a medal round. I've seen a couple of newbies burn through any number of balls and then finally drop one on the green.

Which gets to what I think Ward is talking about. Holes like the 17th push the boundary conditions of the game. A green that some players simply can't reach is not a situation anticipated by the rules. So you are forced to concoct a local rule.


Bob

Well, there's one way...

http://failuremag.com/index.php/feature/article/quirkiest_golf_failures/

June 19, 1985: Angelo Spagnolo, 31, a grocery store manager from Fayette City, Pennsylvania, scores a 66 on the 17th hole of the Tournament Players Club (Sawgrass) course during America’s Worst Avid Golfer contest. Spagnolo hits 27 balls into the water that surrounds the green before officials direct him to putt around the hazard and down the narrow path that leads to the putting surface. Spagnolo shoots 257 in his round to ‘win’ the event.


EDIT:  I see I was beaten to the punch on this one.

[Jim_Kennedy]

"It brings up an interesting philosophical question, though.  Should the rules support the design or the design support the rules?" - Jeff Brauer

Before there were any rules there was golf, and the rules have been constantly adapted over the years to accommodate situations raised by the architecture.

I'd say that rules should support the design, and site specific local rules can be created in the instances where a design has 'flaunted' them. There hasn't been any examples of actual 'flaunting' cited so far, so I'd say the possibility is small given the overall number of courses in the world.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I want to know who played the first 16 holes at TPC and can't make the carry on 17?
And that's from the one guy, who hit the bunker on a fly, only to have the ball bounce into the water. Where's your drop now, Moses?

*(like)

I like the hole pictured.
I haven't been there.
Hard holes can be fun.

It would have been better if the mound was utilized in the strategy - bank shot for Clayman.
Cheers

[Joe Bausch]

A handful of other pics of the 16th at Victoria National from last summer (a course practically built in my folks' backyard):







This shot across the water from the 15th fw:

[Eric Smith]

It would have been better if the mound was utilized in the strategy - bank shot for Clayman.
Cheers

Mike,

You're not kidding. Mr. C is the Ground Game Guru!

He showed all of us at the 5th Major on the final green, final day, how it's done on that brand spankin new green.

Went something like this:



                                                                              
                                                                                >*********** O
                                                                             *
                                                                            *
                                                                               ***********  <
                                                                                                         *
                                                                                                           *
                                                                                                         *
                                                                                                       *
                                                                                                    *
                                                                                                 *
                                                                                              *
                                                                                         *            
                                                               Start....       __>

[Carl Rogers]

Ward:  I'm having trouble visualizing exactly what you are talking about with the hole on your home course.

The one real mistake I've seen is to build holes that some people just can't finish because of a crossing hazard, and then have to make up a local rule for a drop across the hazard that's clearly flaunting the Rules.  For example, on that famous Desmond Muirhead par-3 at Stone Harbor, with the island green and island bunkers, they had a local rule that after two balls in the water (or a bunker shot into the water) you could drop a ball at the back of the green and finish from there!

I've always felt the safest way to handle things was to build holes that didn't have any features which might require you to take a drop ... if the whole property is playable, you'll never need to know the Rules.  Or at least, that's what I thought until the Dustin Johnson thing last year.

Tom, did you delevop that rule after Riverfront No. 18?  For those of you that don't know the course, it has that very kind of wetland hazard about 340 from the tee and a min 75 yard carry.

[Pete_Pittock]

Since this hole is on TV this weekend, has the web.com field play on the 16th contend solidified or changed your opinion. Left is marked as a lateral water hazard.

[ward peyronnin]

Its interesting that after watching the USGA and others mark it as a hazard the PGA has no yellow at all.....just red so no drop. Is this to get the players around the course?

So I haven't changed my mind. Clearly the hole is so conflicted that two "ruling" bodies choose markedly different ways to mark the hole!
Shouldn't a well designed hole require consistent treatment

[Jason Thurman]

So I haven't changed my mind. Clearly the hole is so conflicted that two "ruling" bodies choose markedly different ways to mark the hole!
Shouldn't a well designed hole require consistent treatment

Ward,

I don't necessarily disagree, but why should consistent treatment be a requirement for a well-designed hole?

[ward peyronnin]

Jason

Because I would submit that among the characteristics of a  well designed golf hole one should expect clear strategic options and options that promote play that is more in keeping with the spirit of the game.

There is little strategy to this hole : you either hit it straighter than straight a long distance; lay up to the ladies tee, or when marked like this blow it over the left side of the green and take place it on the putting surface. None of these are "fun" and the latter sort of makes a mockery of water hazard rule. I can't see Ol Tom Morris conceiving this hole

[Jason Thurman]

Ward,

You describe three different strategies, which seems like more than on most par 3s. Aren't most par 3s more a test of execution than a test of strategy? I guess a redan can be a bit strategic, but the primary strategy on any par 3 is to hit the ball straight at the green.

I'm not sure that it's a great hole or anything, but it looks cool and certainly like it would be a fun shot to try. Do players really intentionally blow the ball over the left side of the green on a regular basis? If so, perhaps it needs a drop zone but that's not the end of the world. Plenty of good holes have those. There are also plenty of good holes that Old Tom Morris probably wouldn't have drawn up.

What club do most players hit at this hole? Is it really such an arduous shot that a person playing the correct tees needs to lay up to the forward tee?

I just don't subscribe to this idea that no hole anywhere should ever demand a really difficult shot from a player. If every hole on the course were this demanding, that would suck. But to have to execute a tough shot but one within the realm of possibility for most players on one hole during a round just seems like good tough golf. I'm guessing the members at Victoria National feel the same, and the rest of us can always head over to Quail Crossing.

[ward peyronnin]

At 150 to 160 yards it is a reasonable hole. At 195 it is ridiculous. What you don't see is a slot thru the ridges that shield you from the wind coming in form the right...you can't judge it all.

You miss my point Jason , The latter two strategies aren't proper strategies at all. There is no place to miss the green and there is no way for the less skilled golfer to play this hole. I would have thought that reading this site's comments would have revealed to you that hard does not mean good

[Jason Thurman]

Ward, I agree that hard doesn't necessarily mean good. But it doesn't necessarily mean bad either.

I prefer to look at tough holes in the context of their routing. If 16 is the only do-or-die hole on the course, I think it's fine and a good dramatic touch toward the end of the round. If every hole were that demanding, it would be too much. I haven't played Victoria National, so I must defer to you there. But if it's only 150-160 from the mortal tees, let's just man up and hit a good shot.

It does sound like someone should make a decision on how to handle the hazard. I agree with you there. I might even agree that it isn't a very good hole, but not just because it's hard and requires a local rule to deal with the water.

Too often on this site we drift into labeling every hard hole "bad." There are a lot of holes that are tough for less skilled players. That's why they're less skilled. I'll bet the Road Hole is damn near impossible for some players, as is the 8th at Pebble, the 12th at Augusta, the 16th at Cypress, and a host of other fantastic holes. 16 at Victoria doesn't look "fantastic," but being difficult doesn't automatically make it bad.

Sometimes I think there are people on this site who'd like every hole to have a 150 yard wide fairway and a 10,000 sq. ft. punchbowl green Stimping at 8 with 12 ft swales throughout. There's room in the world for a demanding hole every once in a while, especially on a course designed with the idea of being a true test of skill and execution like Victoria National.

[Tom Yost]

Ward,

You describe three different strategies, which seems like more than on most par 3s. Aren't most par 3s more a test of execution than a test of strategy?

Certainly, one considers the strategic options to achieve the goal of a birdie or par, but the mentioned strategies for this hole are toward the goal of avoiding a double bogey.

A big difference in my mind.

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