George C. Thomas Jr. Is Underated

[Mike Hendren]

Maybe.  Do/Did his quintuplets of LACC (North), Riviera, Bel Air, Ojai and La Cumbre stack up evenly with his contemporaries?  Perhaps Mackenzie and Ross deserve higher acclaim among the golden boys (I'm talking here about American course-work before you Colt Apologists get riled up!), but it seems to me that The Captain fits nicely with the next grouping of Tillinghast, Raynor, Flynn and Maxwell (and whoever you think I left out) - maybe toward the top of the group?

I know we all have our favorites, but does Thomas suffer a tad from:  1) the fact that two of his top five no longer exist; 2) the fact that his remaining three are private and I assume relatively inaccessible;  3) east coast bias - there is no Los Angeles school of golf architecture; and 4) his limited portfolio, both in number and geography?

I have neither seen nor played any of his work, so I'd like to hear first from those who have and who think my supposition has at least a little validity.  Then I encourage the naysayers to chip in. 

Happy New Year - I hope everything comes up roses:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HmZm0OLCAE

Mike

[Laz Versalles]

His work is incredible. I've yet to play LaCumbre, but the rest are simply marvelous (except Ojai, which is fun.)


He's kind of like Jimi Hendrix who died young, made am handful of undeniable classics yet is overshadowed by contemporaries from the east (Rolling Stones (Ross) The Beatles (McKenzie) Led Zeppelin (Tillinghast) The Who (Raynor)

[Matthew Petersen]

It's a combo of a lot of factors, the greatest of which to me is just the limited amount of work. What does still exist has spent a lot of time languishing in the obscurity of benign neglect. If there was more extant work then even that would be less of an issue.

[Laz Versalles]

Should also note the key collaboration of Billy Bell. Not sure we'd have this thread without him.

[Jon Cavalier]

Whenever people visiting the Philadelphia area ask for recommendations, one of the places I always steer them toward is Whitemarsh Valley CC, Thomas’s first design and a fun course on a difficult site. Its been nice to see the club fix many of the drainage issues that plagued the course (it sits mostly in a bowl) and its now playing better than ever.

[Ian Andrew]

I think if you look at contemporaries like Tillinghast, the depth and quality is hard to beat.

• San Francisco
• Winged Foot West
• Bethpage Black
• Somerset Hills
• Quaker Ridge?

I also found Raynor's list better too, but yet I gave Thomas the nod in my list from decades back. Ross is my personal conundrum when you go five deep. I'm not a fan of places like Oak Hill, but I am of Essex and Glens Falls.
I think Thomas has always received a benefit of the doubt based upon the documentation and excellent tournaments held at Riviera. Is that a West Coast bias ...   I had him at #4 - all time - and in hindsight I think I overrated him because of how much I love his writing!

[Joe Bausch]

Whenever people visiting the Philadelphia area ask for recommendations, one of the places I always steer them toward is Whitemarsh Valley CC, Thomas’s first design and a fun course on a difficult site. Its been nice to see the club fix many of the drainage issues that plagued the course (it sits mostly in a bowl) and its now playing better than ever.

WVCC is a classic Philly club.  My photo album from a couple of summers ago:

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/WhitemarshValley/index.html

[Tim Martin]

I think if you look at contemporaries like Tillinghast, the depth and quality is hard to beat.

• San Francisco
• Winged Foot West
• Bethpage Black
• Somerset Hills
• Quaker Ridge?

I also found Raynor's list better too, but yet I gave Thomas the nod in my list from decades back. Ross is my personal conundrum when you go five deep. I'm not a fan of places like Oak Hill, but I am of Essex and Glens Falls.
I think Thomas has always received a benefit of the doubt based upon the documentation and excellent tournaments held at Riviera. Is that a West Coast bias ...   I had him at #4 - all time - and in hindsight I think I overrated him because of how much I love his writing!

Ian-I think it's tough to consider Oak Hill East a Ross at this point as few iconic/major hosting courses have had such extensive changes. Between RTJ Sr. and the Fazios they got their hands on it a handful of times over a forty year plus period. This in addition to some prolific tree planting campaigns by members/committees. I am glad to hear the club is trying to reclaim some of the lost Ross features.

[John Burnes]

I think it's a fair question.  The scope of his work might not merit consideration, especially with the NLE courses no longer in the mix, but one should consider Palos Verdes which I really enjoyed, and his contribution to the industry with his writing, and his role as thought partner (at least) in our beloved Cobb's.


Lastly, like a lot of these guys, I marvel at their multi-dimensional expertise and interests-he was a respected dog breeder and respected expert in his botanical work (those guys respect him like we do in GCA)!


A fascinating figure for sure.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I would say that he was way underated until after the. LACC restoration.  The success is having immense golf course interest effects throughout the country clubs of SoCal.  Most noteworthy is the coup at Bel Air that deposed Fazio's gang from the greens committee and successfully got Tom Doak involved in what should be an amazing transformation! I am hopeful, that LaCumbre will eventually undo the crappy bad architect vandalism, since there has at least been discussion in the past year. Ojai was vandalized by both Jay and Carter Morrish, so out is safe to blame the bad holes and presentation on their poor work.  Hanse snuck some classic Thomas features a mile up the road at Soule Park, which could help provide an idea how Ojai could  be a really cool layout!  The forgotten great Thomas courses were the 36 holes at Fox Hills, just off the 405 freeway across from Hughes Center near LAX. 

[MCirba]

Lastly, like a lot of these guys, I marvel at their multi-dimensional expertise and interests-he was a respected dog breeder and respected expert in his botanical work (those guys respect him like we do in GCA)!

He was also a WWI flying ace way before Snoopy. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Ian -
if you're referencing the series you did on your blog on the Top 25, I believe you actually had him ranked 5th (not 4th), in between Ross in 6th and CBM in 4th (and then Tillie, Colt and Dr Mac in 3rd, 2nd, and 1st). For Bogey's benefit, I'll note that you wrote:

"George Thomas combines strategy and flair as good as any architect that ever practiced. His landmark course at Riviera is a testament to his skill, not only in creating a spectacular course out of a congested box canyon, but how to create incredibly strategic holes with the use of slope and bunker placement. There is no course that I can name that asks a player to work the ball for position. His greens are largely underestimated since they are not as bold as other architects, but there are so many great examples of complicated pin positions made by swale or by slope that you begin to realize that his greens are not as subtle as you first think...The bunkering may be the most memorable feature with the wonderful shapes and edges that really have tremendous character. But you can’t talk about those bunkers without talking about the placement; he had a knack for pushing the bunkers into the landings to create angles, opportunities and generate the risk that made his courses so fun to play."

[Ronald Montesano]

There is no course that I can name that asks a player to work the ball for position.


Someone should build that course. It might be a hit.

[Jeff Taylor]

From Joe's slide show, I would like to see the green complex for #15 to be cut close all the way to the cart path.
Image #75.

[Stephen Britton]

In his book, I like when he talks about how generally a course should play with,


2 par 5's, 1 reachable in 2 and the other not reachable in 2
5 par 3's, (according to him the most important) ranging from needing a long wood to wedge
11 par 4's, 4 long holes needing driver to long iron, 4 medium holes needing driver to mid iron, 3 short holes needing driver to chip.


The diagram from Jasper Park is cool.

[Terry Lavin]

Clearly, he had talent. His limited library has at least two masterworks. But “underrated”?  A stretch perhaps, but I think he’s well respected, given the relative lack of depth of his portfolio.

[Jim Nugent]

In his book, I like when he talks about how generally a course should play with,


2 par 5's, 1 reachable in 2 and the other not reachable in 2
5 par 3's, (according to him the most important) ranging from needing a long wood to wedge
11 par 4's, 4 long holes needing driver to long iron, 4 medium holes needing driver to mid iron, 3 short holes needing driver to chip.

In general this configuration, i.e. more par 3s and fewer par 5s, makes the course harder for scratch golfers and easier for bogey.

It also yields par 69.  Did Thomas ever build or design a par 69 course?   

[Sven Nilsen]

Anyone ever heard of Thomas doing the Oceanside CC course? 


The article below suggests he may have, although before I get accused of not being objective I'd note the idea doesn't amount to anything concrete as of yet.



June 3, 1924 Los Angeles Evening Express -

[John Emerson]

He also did Marion and spring lake on the east coast.  How much is original I’m not sure.

[Jim Hoak]

I love LACC, Bel Air and Riviera (although all have been pretty substantially reworked--at least the first two).  How about the Stanford Golf Course--give him credit for that?
But I think you might be stretching it a bit given his total body of work to put him in the group of 4 right below MacKenzie, Colt and Ross.  I'll buy top 10.

[Dave Givnish]

Joe -


Growing up playing WVCC, the story was that Thomas built the club on his family's farm. Sometime over the last few years, I read that Donald Ross made some changes in the early 20's. Have you seen any information on what those changes were?


The course faced two big challenges. One is that is was modified with trees to make it challenging for the tour players. The other was the expansion of Chestnut Hill College that blocked a lot of the downstream flow of the Wissahickon Creek through the property. That exacerbated the flooding issues.

Whenever people visiting the Philadelphia area ask for recommendations, one of the places I always steer them toward is Whitemarsh Valley CC, Thomas’s first design and a fun course on a difficult site. Its been nice to see the club fix many of the drainage issues that plagued the course (it sits mostly in a bowl) and its now playing better than ever.

WVCC is a classic Philly club.  My photo album from a couple of summers ago:

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/WhitemarshValley/index.html

[Sven Nilsen]

Dave:


Although the Donald Ross Society notes Ross did work at Whitmarsh Valley in 1930, he was actually there in 1919.  He may have done additional work in 1930, but I haven't seen anything that confirms this.  William Flynn came in 1934 with additional changes.


March 16, 1919 Philadelphia Inquirer -





April 22, 1919 Philadelphia Inquirer -





Dec. 3, 1919 Philadelphia Inquirer -

[Dave Givnish]

Thanks, Sven. Those loops are constrained spaces with 3-6 hugging the creek and 11-14 against the property boundaries.