[Garland Bayley]

...
I would love someone to fill in the detail about when and why Macan started out with more front to back and changes, as you say, later in his career.  Ploy to get more jobs?  Took a trip to Scotland that opened his eyes?

Macan maintained in his writings that he followed his principles from career beginning to career end. Jim's example of Richmond CC may be within his principles if the flat land forced him to do more back to front than he would have normally done.

Macan is from Ireland, he played golf in Ireland, England, and Scotland before doing 99% of his work in North America. 99% of his work was done without returning to the British Isles.

He did Royal Colwood before WW I. Went back to fight in WW I. Came back minus a leg and did the remaining work I think without returning.

[Will MacEwen]

I wonder how Macan's ideas met with golfers back then?  Any better than they please golfers now?

That's a fair question.  When you think about the architects who were the strongest advocates for front-to-back greens [Macan, John Low, Max Behr], they didn't exactly have the most famous careers, though certainly other circumstances contributed to that.

Jim:  Where's Richmond?

In Richmond, just behind the International Buddhist Center.



That would be Richmond, BC just south of Vancouver, BC. Home to the best Chinese food in North America.


Macan had quite a famous career in the Pacific Northwest. He worked on every course of importance in Oregon, Washington, and BC with the exception of Portland Golf Club.

Capilano? 

[Garland Bayley]

I wonder how Macan's ideas met with golfers back then?  Any better than they please golfers now?

That's a fair question.  When you think about the architects who were the strongest advocates for front-to-back greens [Macan, John Low, Max Behr], they didn't exactly have the most famous careers, though certainly other circumstances contributed to that.

Jim:  Where's Richmond?

In Richmond, just behind the International Buddhist Center.



That would be Richmond, BC just south of Vancouver, BC. Home to the best Chinese food in North America.


Macan had quite a famous career in the Pacific Northwest. He worked on every course of importance in Oregon, Washington, and BC with the exception of Portland Golf Club.

Capilano? 

I don't have the book handy to check, but it may be that is where the biography author met Mac when he was doing some work for them.
I remember it was one of the highest profile clubs in Vancouver area.

[Will MacEwen]

Garland - he did work on Capilano. I had never heard that.  He was, according to Mike Riste, the resident architect after it opened.

His level of involvement in the Northwest is pretty impressive.

[Tom_Doak]

The course I know with the most front to back greens is Crenshaw and Coore's course at Barton Creek in Austin.  The terrain is interedting and little effort was made to build up the back of greens.  There are as many as nine front to back greens and it's a gas to play.

Bill:  That was their first course, and it's always been overlooked -- people prefer the Fazio course there, and not even Bill and Ben's biggest fans speak much about their course at Barton Creek.  So, what does that tell you? *

Actually, the course of mine that had the biggest number of front-to-back sloping greens was ... Beechtree!

*  The Plantation Course at Kapalua has several front-to-back greens as well, and is much more popular.

P.S.  I would build a lot of front-to-back sloping greens, if I ever got to design a tournament course.  And, that may be one reason I'm unlikely to ever be chosen to design a tournament course. 

[DMoriarty]

I would love someone to fill in the detail about when and why Macan started out with more front to back and changes, as you say, later in his career.  Ploy to get more jobs?  Took a trip to Scotland that opened his eyes?

I love how some modern architects suspect that so much of what was said and done by the old dead guys was a "ploy to get more jobs." I have a feeling that this tells us more about the modern guys than it does about some of the older guys.  Surely the older guys were concerned with getting work, but from what I can tell Macan was quite principled and opinionated when it came to course design, and if he was using back-to-front greens the most likely reason for it was because he thought it would produce the best courses.

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

So you don't think they schlepped for jobs?  Based on evidence and human nature, I would say you are quite wrong.

And, my question still stands, even if you disagree with my guess as to possible motives (one guess, BTW, not the only reason)  What caused the change in his "principled" design philosophy if in fact he designed more front to back sloping greens) later in his career.  I really don't know anything about him as indicated in my previous post.

[Garland Bayley]

Jeff,

Based on his biography, you are quite wrong. He did not schlep for jobs. He freely admitted to being a poor businessman, he undercharged for his work, he freely admits his honesty lost him jobs, etc.

We have one example where he may have done fewer front to back greens, but may still be within his principles since the land was so uninteresting. I would say one mustn't make to big a deal about that one example.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Garland,

Where would one find his writings?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Never mind, found it.  I did recall someone writing one recently.  Do I take it most of your quotes come from that book?

[DMoriarty]

Jeff,
I am sure some must have "shlepped for jobs" just as there is plenty of "shlepping" going on still.  But I also think some are too quick to dismiss what these guys believed and accomplished by suggesting they were just schlepping for jobs or otherwise hamstrung.

And, as for this particular designer, I think your premise may be flawed.  I don't think you have established that Macan changed his approach late in his career.   No use speculating why he might have until you first establish that he did. 

Isn't it most likely that Macan believed what he wrote and generally designed according to those beliefs? 

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

Not knowing much about Macan, I was mererly wondering, not positing.  And, I was only going on what someone else who seemed to know posted about how he changed.  That said, my point about the golden age being a long time period, and full of changes is generally true, and intersting to discuss.  Lastly, this is a discussion group, so discuss!

I am sure Macan generally believed what he wrote, and hope someone can fill me in on him, even more than Garland's brief post above.  He seems to be sort of a cult figure, like Behr, with some, but most of us (I'll bet) just don't know that much about him, and if his designs have been discussed extensively here, I missed most of that, although I do know the name.  Of course, the easy way might be to tell me to buy the bio like you guys did......

Actually, this thread could go two ways - about Macan, or reverse slope greens.  I guess a third is to talk about me, but no one is interested too much in that!  LOL

[Garland Bayley]

Never mind, found it.  I did recall someone writing one recently.  Do I take it most of your quotes come from that book?

That's my source. The author was lucky enough to get access to the contents of his office through his family.

[Bill_McBride]

Of Macan's courses I have played Columbia-Edgewater, Marine Drive and Royal Colwood, a good sample.  Maybe these are not the original greens, but I don't remember that many front to back sloping greens.  What did I miss?

The course I know with the most front to back greens is Crenshaw and Coore's course at Barton Creek in Austin.  The terrain is interedting and little effort was made to build up the back of greens.  There are as many as nine front to back greens and it's a gas to play.

No one seems to know how many Macan greens are left at Columbia-Edgewater, with most guesses being in the range zero to none.
There are only three left at Marine Drive, of which I noted above #3 is a clear front to back example.
Don't know about Royal Colwood.

Just had an email from the pro at Columbia-Edgewater who tells me that all the greens are the original Macans except for 3, 4, 9 and 17, and none slope from front to back.   The new greens, mostly by Bob Cupp I think, are either flat or slope back to front. 

[Garland Bayley]

Bill,

You've played C-E a lot. What are your recollections of slope on the greens? I've never had the opportunity to walk on them. Could some of those called level actually have a front to back slope? Often times his front to back slope is very understated.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

You've played C-E a lot. What are your recollections of slope on the greens? I've never had the opportunity to walk on them. Could some of those called level actually have a front to back slope? Often times his front to back slope is very understated.

Only 5 and 11 seem to me to be slightly front to back, and that's just behind a subtle ridge across the middle of each. 

If you shave and get a haircut, you might get a shot at CECC next summer if I get out there.  Just kidding. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have actually done a half dozen or so reverse slope greens, which also raises the question of where they are best used in the modern game?

At the last PGA at Oakland Hills, Ross had a reverse slope green (11?) which I think was a par 5 converted to a long 4 and into a headwind.  The pros did land short and try to run up almost universally the day I was there.  However, I have used them on fairly long holes like 433 yards, and the tendency for good players is to just hit higher spin shots, a la the Shinney 7 situation, while average players struggle.

This makes me think that the best place to use these kinds of holes is for an equivalent longest par4 or short par 5, or otherwise they don't get used the way intended by the old guys.

Any thoughts?

[Garland Bayley]

Jeff,

You mention Shinney's 7th, which of course is a Redan. So it seems that the most discussed template, and perhaps most copied has a green sloping front to back. So who says they still don't do front to back.

As I mentioned earlier, I am thinking a front to back slope was more useful when green speeds were slower. There comes a point in mowing grass shorter and shorter that a ball running downhill will no longer stop.

The lesson of the Redan is that properly shaped run ups can be used to kill the speed for a downhill run on the green.

[Garland Bayley]

...

If you shave and get a haircut, you might get a shot at CECC next summer if I get out there.  Just kidding. 

KP was just at the wrong time of year this year. It fell before my semi-annual shave and haircut.
 

[Garland Bayley]

"If the site provided no natural contours like Marine Drive and Richmond, the developer had to supply him with sufficient funds to create first class greens." Michael Riste, Just call me Mac - the Biography of A. Vernon Macan, pg. 78

It's interesting that Jim brought our attention to Richmond, because as we see, so does Mac's biographer.

[Garland Bayley]

Bump in case Tiger wishes to peruse.

[Garland Bayley]

Since Marine Drive has been discussed here, I though I would add another quote from Just Call me Mac.

"Because the ground on the site was perfectly flat all greens at Richmond are plateau greens."

I believe this give some justification for Mac going out of his typical modus operendi in the creation of Richmond CC. The biographer wrote the above in the section where he discusses how much emphasis Mac put on drainage.

[Tony Ristola]

Front to back sloping greens must have been a lot of fun to play during Pacific NW winters. The bounce-in option generally doesn't exist at that time of year.

The soils on Vancouver Island and Vancouver are generally horrible. There is a lot of glacial till, a mix of stone, clay, a little sand (you'll find pockets), and the best (and would produce really good year-round conditions) you can find when not along the coast would be fields and hills of homogenous gravel. I don't know of a course built on such a property though.

That glacial till is notorious for not draining well. The courses have the consistency of rice paddies if not extensively drained. One course on Vancouver Island with such soils put in about 600,000 worth of drainage at 6 foot intervals. It made a great difference during the winter, but I wonder how effective it will be over the long term, and how often they might have to manage the drain lines. There is half of one hole they didn't drain because they thought it would surface drain... it doesn't. That undrained fairway half provides a great contrast in playing conditions.

Another course had limited drainage and performed well for the first years, then got progressively wetter. They have been busy installing drainage during the autumn/winter months.

I do recall the inland holes at Victoria were wet and sloppy during a round in early spring... 30-years ago (can't recall much about the soil quality along seaside holes, but suspect they were/are better draining.)  I think it was the contrast in conditions from seaside to inland holes is what stuck out in my mind. Jeff Mingay would surely know if there is/was a difference, or if I am imagining it, and if the club installed extensive drainage; inland and/or seaside.  

[Garland Bayley]

Tony,

I have to wonder what your definition of bounce one in is? You know the pros bounce them into the 16th at Augusta National don't you? And, that's off water.

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