Playing over land NOT owned by the Club

[Bruce Katona]

Joe B: I have my own Lake Nona story.  When we played I was determined to meet Ernie Els, who was our neighbor.  Hitting his patio furniture with my 2nd shots was not a great introduction. 

I did not play the ball where it lay.  I very casually dropped on the opposite side of the fairway and slinked away.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

One example that I know of is Cape Arundel in Maine.  The club signed a 100 year lease with someone for a parcel (2-3 holes?), probably never dreaming it would cause an issue down the road.  Fast forward a century and I believe the ancestors of the original lessor basically strong-armed the club into purchasing the property for a princely sum.  I'm sure someone on here can fill in the details.

[Anders Rytter]

I've played a couple of holes like this around Spain, with houses on the inside of dog-legs. Marbella area and also on Mallorca. Some have signs that prohibbit that you  hit the ball over the dogleg and as far as i recall also a hole where they prohibited the use of drivers.

[Mark Chaplin]

There are many clubs in the UK who play over common land, i.e. anyone can have free access.

[Mike Hendren]

The par 3 13th hole at Vanderbilt Legends Club in Franklin, TN plays across a small peninsula of land owned by a third party - the property line follows the creek.  I have seen a survey of the property and it notes that the golf club has air rights over a legally defined (metes and bounds) portion of the adjacent property. 

Bogey

[Bill_McBride]

HI Tim and Patrick,

Hiring lawyers is the inevitable situation with all these cases. Fortunately in this case, the heroic carry is not absolutely necessary for the routing to work, but it would make for a neat back tee. I just found myself trying to think of other places where this situation was occurring, and found very few examples.

So thanks for any help.

scott

Scott, with housing estate courses in America and inevitable dog legs, there are countless examples here. 

[John_Conley]

Just wondering if anyone can come up with examples of where a hole plays over land that is NOT owned by the Club. And to be more precise, the land is in private ownership of another person/group. e.g a Tee shot where you have to hit over the corner of someone else's field (not the ocean, river, beach).

Has this situation ever been positive for both parties, or does it (as one would expect) lead to difficulties?

thanks,

scott

http://www.lakewissotagolf.com/home/

This course used to be called the Chippewa Falls Elks Club.  As I recall, it was #8 on 9-hole course.  It must have been rerouted when it expanded to 18 holes.  I would have played the hole you describe over 30 years ago.  It wasn't a big deal, however, as the other land was a vacant field.

[David_Elvins]

My limited experience with golf courses and private property....

...then approach the property owner with an eye toward trying to ameliorate the situation as favorably as possible.

Pat,

I seem to recall you telling a story of a golfer unsuccessfully taking a short cut over private property.  The golfer approached the property owner with an eye toward trying to ameliorate the situation as favorably as possible.

The story may have involved an attractive lady in a jacuzzi, am I remembering things correctly?   

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Yep the Old Course Hotel is not the city of St Andrews. I am guessing Mark is right on and there is deal in place between them for liability purposes.Shoot there are plenty of examples of private property in hards way, but where the hole intentionally cuts across is harder to think of. On eof my childhood course Monroe Muni cut across the city owned power plant but while separate entities, ultimately both are the city.

[John Burnes]

The ideal shot (though not necessary), is a power draw off of #17 at  Springhaven (pa).  By doing so, you take your ball over 3 houses.  Again, not required, but it can happen.

Schenley park in Pittsburgh, the player is forced to carry a public road.

Only holes I can think of.

[Tommy Williamsen]

As Mark Chaplin noted many courses in the UK are played on "common ground". Westward ho! and Pennard are but two examples.

[John_Cullum]

The back tee on the 7th hole at the Legends course at Chateau Elan is actually in someone's back yard

[Adam Clayman]

Does Pebble own the beach and cliffs you play over on the 8th?

The California Coastal Commission thinks they do. Or better put, (In your best Teamster's diction) What youz gonna do about it.

Hope you're well Bob.

[Kalen Braley]

This happens on countless courses I've played with housing on it.  But usually is only the option for the "heroic" play as opposed to the a "mandatory" play.

I think the best examples are shots that are played across public roads....like Stanford, CPC, etc

[Garland Bayley]

A local course through real estate has such an example, and provides the setting for one of the funniest things I have ever seen on a course.

The person who designed the hole must not have been real bright, or his hand was forced by the real estate developer. The hole is just over 300 yards in length when playing the middle of the fairway. However, the configuration is 250 yards to the center of the dogleg, which is almost 90 degrees to the left. Therefore the green set back in the houses is little more than 250 yards away from the tee. Of course, many people tried to cut the dogleg over private property. Not trusting my driver, I would just hit 5 wood to the turning point and wedge in. One day we showed up and they had planted a line of 3 trees to the left off the tee box to start to discourage dogleg cutters. A member of the foursome, not trying to cut the dogleg hit the first tree dead straight on, which was quite a feat since it was all of 3 inches in diameter. The ball came back parallel to the tee and started bouncing vigorously down the cart path headed toward exiting the property. However, there was a rock wall next to the path. The ball struck a rock sticking out slightly and reversed path and bounced back to just in front of the person who had hit it. The ball traveled at least 100 yards for a net gain of 3 yards. Since he was teeing off with his fairway wood, he stepped forward and played his next shot, which although not as spectacular as the first had us rolling on the ground laughing as it struck the same tree and came back directly to his feet. His third swing finally got the ball off in the proper direction, allowing us to continue our game.

[Tom_Doak]

Cape Arundel and Essex County (MA) both have a few holes on land that was on a long-term lease, where the 99 years has come and gone.  Both managed to deal with it, although the Cape Arundel situation was much more contentious.

No one has mentioned yet that North Berwick West Links skips back and forth between common land and land owned by the club.  That's actually what some of those walls are about.

[Jay Cox]

Since he was teeing off with his fairway wood, he stepped forward and played his next shot, which although not as spectacular as the first had us rolling on the ground laughing as it struck the same tree and came back directly to his feet.

This reminds me of the time my father managed to hit the same two-foot-wide tree on three consecutive shots -- from about 70 yards away, since on the first two tries the ball bounced back right at him and ended up almost at his feet.

I wish I could manage that kind of consistency.   

[Garland Bayley]

Since he was teeing off with his fairway wood, he stepped forward and played his next shot, which although not as spectacular as the first had us rolling on the ground laughing as it struck the same tree and came back directly to his feet.

This reminds me of the time my father managed to hit the same two-foot-wide tree on three consecutive shots -- from about 70 yards away, since on the first two tries the ball bounced back right at him and ended up almost at his feet.

I wish I could manage that kind of consistency.   

Its only consistent if he was aiming on the tree.

[Niall C]

The 17th at TOC is the classic example of where many of these old Scottish courses get by on the sufference of their neighbours. The issue isn't particularly that balls travel over neighbouring property but that they land in or on neighbouring property causing damage. Many existing clubs have come to an accommodation with the neighbours such that the neighbours get compensated for any damage and accordingly members are encouraged to report any stray shots to the club without the threat of being held personally liable.

If the neighbour wanted to put an end to the problem, they could go to court and provided they were able to prove it was an ongoing problem, or nuisance, they could quite readily get an interim interdict against the club preventing them from playing golf on the hole where the stray shots were coming from. It wouldn't matter a jot if the course was there before the neighbours brought there proerty, as each party has the right not to be caused any nuisance.

In the case of the Old Course Hotel, even the most incompetent or inexperienced solicitor could obtain that court order if instructed to do so by the hotel. So why haven't the hotel owners done anything about it to date ? Not hard to see, the same reason the hotel is there in the first place and thats because no course, no hotel.

Where the neighbouring property is farmland, I doubt the farmer is going to be too happy about golfers trampling all over their crops or fields (foot and mouth anyone ?) which is why places like Crail have signs up telling golfers not to try and retrieve balls from neighbouring property. I suppose though it might be worth asking the question, but I have my doubts as to whether the idea will be well received.

Niall

[Jason Topp]

Doesn't Dooks have a par three that plays over the corner of neighboring property?