The case for Shinnecock as #1 in the rankings

[Bill Brightly]

Shinny is great as an overall test.  But I think if you go hole-by-hole....it does not stand up.  For instance...Shinny's Redan is not a great hole.  It is just hard.

I wish people would stop saying it is a Redan. It is what Flynn did to a Redan... Cool hole, but not a Redan.

[JESII]

Shinny is great as an overall test.  But I think if you go hole-by-hole....it does not stand up.  For instance...Shinny's Redan is not a great hole.  It is just hard.

Interesting thought considering it has a few of my favorite holes in the world. What is not great about the Redan at Shinnecock?

Bill B, why is it not a Redan? Some of the CBM guys have suggested he had a very liberal stance on matching each piece of the original...

[Bill Brightly]

Macdonald did. And then Flynn totally re-built the hole, taking out the long, angled front and rear bunkers, and put a bunker where the kick mound probably was.

[JESII]

Macdonald did what?

[Bill Brightly]

I don't know the entire history of Shinnecock, but I believe Macdonald built a Redan, and Flynn built what we see today right over the old greensite.

Jim, do you have Wayne Morrison's book? He did extensive research on this hole. I wonder if it is included.

[JESII]

I don't have his book...but I know where he lives...

I think #7 at Shinnecock has to be considered several degrees closer to the original Redan concept than Pine Valley or Merion's Third holes, would anybody argue that?

[Bill Brightly]

Well, I'll grant you that Shinnecock #7 is closer to a Redan than the holes you reference at Pine Valley and Merion, because they are not Redans at all whereas Shinny's started out as one. Macdonald's Redan is buried under Flynn's nice par 3.

Nae kick mound, nae Redan.

All very good holes, just not Redans.

[jkinney]

Bill - I've not seen any photos of CBM's original #7 at Shinny. It would be fascinating to see whatever changes Flynn made. Can you find them and post them ? Redans are fascinating and an entire architectural concept in and of themselves, IMO.

[Dan King]

I've been ranking all the days of my life. It's a big job, not least because I don't remember much about my early years. I've always had trouble picking the top day. Is it one of the days my children were born, or that day spent with two ladies of the evening named Good and Plenty in Reno?

How to choose?

Cheers,
Dan King

Money is a scoreboard where you can rank how you're doing against other people.
Mark Cuban

[DMoriarty]

I've been ranking all the days of my life. It's a big job, not least because I don't remember much about my early years. I've always had trouble picking the top day. Is it one of the days my children were born, or that day spent with two ladies of the evening named Good and Plenty in Reno?

How to choose?

Cheers,
Dan King

I'd say for proprieties sake, go with the the birth of the kids in a tie for best.  Unless you named one kid 'Good' and one kid 'Plenty.'  If so then definitely go with the night in Reno.

[Dan King]

I also had a day where I ate a most excellent apple. Not long after that I ate a really good orange. Which day gets ranked better?

And please, don't ask me to rank Good against Plenty.

Cheers,
Dan King

You have to have a reason to go out there. It's almost on the way to England.
 --Davis Love III (on why few tour players are familiar with Shinnecock Hills)

[JESII]

Dan,

Your quoted sub-post there is THE reason we should build and renovate courses for you and I as opposed to the people they are actually built and renovated for...sadly...

[Dan King]

Jim Sullivan writes:
Your quoted sub-post there is THE reason we should build and renovate courses for you and I as opposed to the people they are actually built and renovated for...sadly...

In my almost always humble opinion the pros should stop playing on golf courses. They like pristine conditions, where they are judged solely on their physical ability. Since the beginning of the pro game they have tried to take the emotional part of the game out of it. Therefore, they should leave the golf courses to those of us that like that golf is both physical and emotional. The pros should move their game to indoor, virtual golf, where they will not have to worry about the inherently unfair aspects of the outdoor game.

Cheers,
Dan King

You can talk about strategy all you want, but what really matters is resilency. On the last nine holes of the Masters or Open, there's going to come at least one point when you want to throw yourself in the nearest trash can and disappear. You know you can't hide. It's like your walking down the fairway naked. The gallery knows what you've done, every other player knows and worst of all, you know. That's when you find out if you're a real competitor.
 --Hale Irwin

[DMoriarty]

I haven't played Shinnecock but it sounds like a great course and surely worthy of mention with the best of them.  That said, I wonder why anyone would want to judge courses on the standard of which is the "harder fair test." These are three words that - separate or together - describe quite a lot gone wrong with golf course design, so I find it odd that we'd use these qualities to determine what is best.  Torrey Pines South can probably be set up to meet this criteria.  Is it worthy of mention with the world's best?

All of these rankings discussions come down to the qualities we choose to value.  For example, Jack Davis values that "Shinnecock shows you which shot to hit and then begs you to hit it. Don't pull it off? Watch out!!!"  Others may not find this to be an important or even a desirable quality in a golf course.

[jkinney]

I haven't played Shinnecock but it sounds like a great course and surely worthy of mention with the best of them.  That said, I wonder why anyone would want to judge courses on the standard of which is the "harder fair test." These are three words that - separate or together - describe quite a lot gone wrong with golf course design, so I find it odd that we'd use these qualities to determine what is best.  Torrey Pines South can probably be set up to meet this criteria.  Is it worthy of mention with the world's best?

All of these rankings discussions come down to the qualities we choose to value.  For example, Jack Davis values that "Shinnecock shows you which shot to hit and then begs you to hit it. Don't pull it off? Watch out!!!"  Others may not find this to be an important or even a desirable quality in a golf course.

DMoriarity - Since all the top courses in the rankings possess the sensory intangibles of beauty, setting, etc., it seems to me that "harder fair test" should be the final consideration. You disagree, which is fine, but don't make final judgements w/o playing Shiinny. It's not only the pros that love it; it's ordinary golfers like me - currently a mediocre 11.9 index. I've been fortunate to play the three courses above Shinny in the rankings numerous times (Cypress, Pine Valley and Augusta), and I find Shinny to be the best of the four. Just my opinion and just my "harder fair test" final criterion.

[DMoriarty]

jkinney,

No final judgements from me. The only judgement I've made about Shinnecock is that it sounds great.  I was just commenting on the standards of evaluation.  For me "harder fair test" may not be the best standard even if the "sensory intangibles" were all equal.  Your comments indicating that course works well for the ordinary golfer go further with me than anything about harder fair tests.

[jkinney]

DMoriarity - You've sharpened my thinking. Thank you. Herewith: regular and ladies are           such thatdecent drives allow one a go at the green in regulation, with all the approach shots being right out in front of you. But a shot missed is a shot lost, and a foolish attempt to get the miss back results invaribly in another shot lost. So the "harder fair test" ends up being proportional from the U.S. Open tees through every tee box in. In my own case, I can drive the ball far enough that I can go back to the Open tees once a year when my driver's working well. From there a really good round for me (90) is ten shots higher than a really good round (80) from the regular tees. In both cases I've had an absolutely wonderful time, and in no case feel that I've been dealt with unfairly.