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Howard Riefs

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#1 at Doral
« on: March 10, 2012, 10:16:06 PM »
A par 5 that plays to a 4.154 scoring average?

The first hole at Doral Blue, a 529-yard par 5, continues to get blistered year-after-year:

2011: Ranked 904th in difficulty out of 918 holes last year on Tour

2012 through 3 rounds: 4.154 scoring average
        Eagles -- 25
        Birdies -- 139
        Pars -- 55
        Bogeys -- 2
        Double bogeys -- 0

It's a driver and an easy iron for the pros. Or a driver and wedge for Bubba.

Why does the Tour keep the hole as a par 5? While some say that "par is relative," why not change the hole to a par 4? It's played that way. (The course par is 72.)


Looking forward to Hanse's renovation, plans are to "push the No.1 green across the creek that currently runs behind it, forcing bombers to factor in a water hazard 30 yards in front of the green. The move will stretch the Monster’s easiest hole to a potential 609 yards."


Related articles on course renovation:
http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golftalkcentral/hanse-brainstorming-doral-redesign/?cid=twitter_A_gc_HANSEBRAINSTORMINGDORALREDESIGN_031012

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports-golf/2012/03/10/a-bluer-monster-looking-over-gil-hanses-doral-blueprint/

« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 10:17:41 PM by Howard Riefs »
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Sam Morrow

Re: #1 at Doral
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2012, 11:52:11 PM »
If par is relative why change the par?
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Mac Plumart

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Re: #1 at Doral
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2012, 11:59:01 PM »
Par is the most powerful force in golf.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 12:23:42 AM by Mac Plumart »
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Howard Riefs

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Re: #1 at Doral
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2012, 12:07:47 AM »
Quote from: Sam Morrow on March 10, 2012, 11:52:11 PM
If par is relative why change the par?

Something's wrong when there are 12x as many eagles as bogeys.
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"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Sam Morrow

Re: #1 at Doral
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2012, 12:16:05 AM »
Quote from: Howard Riefs on March 11, 2012, 12:07:47 AM
Quote from: Sam Morrow on March 10, 2012, 11:52:11 PM
If par is relative why change the par?

Something's wrong when there are 12x as many eagles as bogeys.

These guys are good. :D
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Mac Plumart

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Re: #1 at Doral
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2012, 12:24:49 AM »
Howard, you are correct.

I played the hole just a few weeks ago and sliced my driver and hit my second shot into the adjecent fairway.  And I made par.  Not right.  Too easy.  Agreed.
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Howard Riefs

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Re: #1 at Doral
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2012, 12:37:12 AM »
Quote from: Sam Morrow on March 11, 2012, 12:16:05 AM
Quote from: Howard Riefs on March 11, 2012, 12:07:47 AM
Quote from: Sam Morrow on March 10, 2012, 11:52:11 PM
If par is relative why change the par?

Something's wrong when there are 12x as many eagles as bogeys.

These guys are good. :D

Indeed. Especially in light of the USGA's definition of par:

""Par" is the score that an expert player would be expected to make for a given hole. Par means expert play under ordinary weather conditions, allowing two strokes on the putting green.


Quote from: Mac Plumart on March 11, 2012, 12:24:49 AM
Howard, you are correct.

I played the hole just a few weeks ago and sliced my driver and hit my second shot into the adjecent fairway.  And I made par.  Not right.  Too easy.  Agreed.

Nice par. I haven't played the Blue course in 20 years. How was your experience? Highlights? Is the course in as much of an update as is looks and as they say?

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"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Mac Plumart

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Re: #1 at Doral
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2012, 12:48:08 AM »
Howard,

My take on the course?  I enjoyed it, all in all.  I found there to be too much water.  But I loved the fact that there were so many short-ish par 4's.  But when I think about that statement, that is a bad thing for a PGA Tour course.  If I thought the par 4's were short-ish, that doesn't compute for the big boys.

Given this, I'd say the angles and distance needs to mesh up better.  I don't think you can simply lengthen the course and retain any characater whatsoever.  That is why I say distance and angles need to mesh up.  And I thought the angles were one of the highlights for my round there.  Trying to cut corners to get better angles in.  Risk/reward shots with bunkers creating prefer angles...and things like that.  Cool stuff!

Did I think the course was GREAT!!!  No.  I did not.  Did I have fun?  Yes.  I did.  Would I play again if I was in Miami?  Only if I could get a "deal" on the price.  Full-boat is too much for the courses quality.
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Sam Morrow

Re: #1 at Doral
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2012, 01:03:40 AM »
I thought par was relative, if that's the case who cares what the USGA says?
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Mike Benham

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Re: #1 at Doral
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2012, 09:58:11 AM »

Because when Tiger eagles the 1st hole, the news wires run the feed that says "Tiger eagles the 1st hole, now only 3 shots off the lead" ...

And when Tiger is only 3 shots off the lead, people will turn on the Golf Channel to watch the action.

And when people turn on the Golf Channel, the Golf Channel sells more advertising.

And when the Golf Channel sells more advertising, then the Golf Channel pays more fees to the PGA Tour.

And when the Golf Channel pays more fees to the PGA Tour, Tim Finchem can say that the PGA Tour donates more money to charity.

And when the PGA Tour says they donate more money to charity, the suits of the PGA Tour get bigger bonus'.

And that is why the 1st hole is a par 4.5 ...
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JESII

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Re: #1 at Doral
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2012, 10:17:36 AM »
What Mike said...


But also, if the hole is averaging 4.2 under the easiest possible playing conditions - downwind, firm enough fairways, soft green - then it sure doesn't sound like "the expert player" would be expected to make a 4 every time.
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jeffwarne

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Re: #1 at Doral
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2012, 10:27:57 AM »
Quote from: Jim Sullivan on March 11, 2012, 10:17:36 AM
What Mike said...


But also, if the hole is averaging 4.2 under the easiest possible playing conditions - downwind, firm enough fairways, soft green - then it sure doesn't sound like "the expert player" would be expected to make a 4 every time.

It's all a very moot point as The Donald is lenghthening the hole substantially

Surely you're not suggesting it should be a 529 yard par 4 to start?
If the wind changed(it's not always dead downwind),it's not a par 4.

If the wind changes and it is a par 4,then they move the tees up to make it fair, and you haven't "toughened" the course, you've made it easier,on a course that hardly needs to be made easier.
(although you do gain that all important extra 4 shots in relation to par ::) ::))

I've played there 100 times(preProV1 ;)),shot some very good scores.
never made a 3 on one.
Played  many times with a guy who regularly qualified for the event, never saw him make a three.

The reason 1 is so "easy" this year, is the reason 18 is so hard
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 10:54:52 AM by jeffwarne »
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: #1 at Doral
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2012, 11:06:15 AM »
Gil Hanse has other ideas:

The laughably easy first hole, a downwind par-5 that players have been reaching in two with wedges for their approach shots, will have a creek fronting the green and will play closer to 610 yards. This week, it's listed at about 513.

http://www.cbssports.com/golf/blog/eye-on-golf/17708567
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Howard Riefs

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Re: #1 at Doral
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2012, 04:08:38 PM »
Mac,
Thanks for sharing the insight from your round.


Quote from: Mike Benham on March 11, 2012, 09:58:11 AM

Because when Tiger eagles the 1st hole, the news wires run the feed that says "Tiger eagles the 1st hole, now only 3 shots off the lead" ...

And when Tiger is only 3 shots off the lead, people will turn on the Golf Channel to watch the action.

And when people turn on the Golf Channel, the Golf Channel sells more advertising.

And when the Golf Channel sells more advertising, then the Golf Channel pays more fees to the PGA Tour.

And when the Golf Channel pays more fees to the PGA Tour, Tim Finchem can say that the PGA Tour donates more money to charity.

And when the PGA Tour says they donate more money to charity, the suits of the PGA Tour get bigger bonus'.

And that is why the 1st hole is a par 4.5 ...


Call it the transitive property of par.
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"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Joe Leenheer

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Re: #1 at Doral
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2012, 11:31:49 PM »
1st hole as a 520ish Par 5 that allows me a chance to pick up a stroke early on old man par....I hear birds chirping and the sun warming my face.

1st hole as a 600 yard par 5 or 500 yard par 4....I'm hungover and someone just punched me in the gut on the first tee.

   
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Jackson C

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Re: #1 at Doral
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2012, 11:20:24 PM »
Very good Mike!  We love those commercials -- my son has all the lines memorized.

Isn't there a principle to start the round easy and to get the golfers on their way?  #1 comports with the principle.
Putting the green further back and behind a creek is going to make this hole extremely difficult for the average golfer to hit in 3 shots, particularly playing into the wind as is often the case.


Quote from: Mike Benham on March 11, 2012, 09:58:11 AM

Because when Tiger eagles the 1st hole, the news wires run the feed that says "Tiger eagles the 1st hole, now only 3 shots off the lead" ...

And when Tiger is only 3 shots off the lead, people will turn on the Golf Channel to watch the action.

And when people turn on the Golf Channel, the Golf Channel sells more advertising.

And when the Golf Channel sells more advertising, then the Golf Channel pays more fees to the PGA Tour.

And when the Golf Channel pays more fees to the PGA Tour, Tim Finchem can say that the PGA Tour donates more money to charity.

And when the PGA Tour says they donate more money to charity, the suits of the PGA Tour get bigger bonus'.

And that is why the 1st hole is a par 4.5 ...
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