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Ran Morrissett

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Despite having no data to substantiate this claim  ;), I opine that more greens are being hit in regulation at this US Open from balls off the fairway than ever before.
 
Do you agree? It sure seems so from what I have seen, coupled with input from friends.
 
Let’s suppose that it’s true.
 
That leads to a tricky question: Is that good or bad?
 
Given that we are at Pinehurst, I believe that it is positive because it promotes a bolder, more open shouldered brand of the game, even under major championship conditions. The severity of the Pinehurst greens, as a set, all eighteen of them, (not just 6 or 8 or 10) is the perfect complement to patchy ‘rough’. The integrity of the course’s challenge is being wonderfully maintained by its one-off green complexes. Together, the absence of rough and treacherous greens are providing an examination that yields a star-studded leaderboard. Just what we want!

(True, Pinehurst on Friday (with a couple of holes set up too short  >:( ) yielded again to Martin Kaymer's superlative performance but Pebble, Oakmont, St. Andrews, Augusta, etc. have always shown that great courses are great BECAUSE they reward superlative play.)
 
In decades gone by, killer rough combined with killer greens created the prototypical US Open beat-down, embodied by Oakmont and Winged Foot. That brand of golf has its place FOR SURE but golf should be about variety when compared to other sports. After all, that's its ultimate trump card which is why it was a shame that past US Open course set-ups became too easily stereotyped. Millions upon millions of people tuned in for US Opens only to see similarly difficult parkland set-ups time and time again.
 
That is the very perception that Mike Davis is changing - what constitutes a thorough examination. Without question, Pinehurst is challenging the best even if they can hit the green from the rough. Just as the players and spectators this week are seeing a different form of golf, same will apply at Chambers Bay in 2015 and Erin Hills in 2017. ALL OF THIS IS GREAT FOR THE SPORT.

Golf's variety is FINALLY being highlighted and that’s a very good thing.
 
Best,
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 04:21:04 PM by Ran Morrissett »

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Hitting greens from off the fairway at a US Open - good or bad?
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2014, 04:27:45 PM »
Completely agree, Ran.

One popular refrain here is that recovery shots are among the most exciting in the game. The "stuff" at Pinehurst is presenting that option.

James Bennett

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Re: Hitting greens from off the fairway at a US Open - good or bad?
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2014, 04:34:37 PM »
recovery is great.  I despise 'catholic' golf, where the penalty is dished out the moment you sin on the golf course.

Are people scoring the same from the rough as they are from the fairway?  Or are they getting on or near the green, but in very long putt or texas wedge territory? And often taking a bogey.

It seems to me that the course is identifying who the best player/s is/are quite well.

James B

ps which do you prefer to see - a guy hitting out of the 4 inch rough onto the green, or out of the sandy waste onto the green?  The pro's can do this out of both roughs.
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: Hitting greens from off the fairway at a US Open - good or bad?
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2014, 04:40:16 PM »
I think results from the Off The Fairway are binary:
A) get a hardpan / sandy lie = more spin than from fairway ergo increased probability of green-holding shot
B) crap = good luck

The ratio of these two situations lies at a level where Off The Fairway is not 100% Death Zone. Traditional primary-rough USO setups are 100% Death Zone. We are seeing something different. I like the increased variation of potential outcomes -- it works pretty nicely in major championship golf. This type of setup is what draws us to The Open and to the Masters.

Yesterday Dustin Johnson hit this from the DZ back of 6 green (tee shot flew into stands):
http://psychobunny.smugmug.com/photos/i-qFW5xh7/0/L/i-qFW5xh7-L.jpg

He opened the clubface and played a regular sand shot, no biggie.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

RKoehn

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Re: Hitting greens from off the fairway at a US Open - good or bad?
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2014, 04:44:07 PM »
Can't speak for anyone else, but I don't like to see everyone hitting the greens (and spinning the ball!) from the "rough."  We see that day in day out most every week on tour.  

At this pace, the winning score is likely to be *higher* than the U.S. Open at the following events on tour this year alone:

Farmer's (Torrey) -9
Honda (PGA Nat'l) -8
Cadillac (Doral) -4
Valspar (Innisbrook) -7
Valero (TPC San Ant) -8
Masters -8
Crowne (Colonial) -9

Heck, the winning score at Memphis (!!!) last week was -10, and Kaymer is -10 thru 36 at the U.S. Open!  

Terry Lavin

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Re: Hitting greens from off the fairway at a US Open - good or bad?
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2014, 04:48:10 PM »
The "stuff" doesn't provide any real difficulty for the pros in this Open. It's effect is pure eye candy. It would likely be a challenge for the rest of us, but it's negligible for them.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

George Pazin

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Re: Hitting greens from off the fairway at a US Open - good or bad?
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2014, 04:52:03 PM »
Can't speak for anyone else, but I don't like to see everyone hitting the greens (and spinning the ball!) from the "rough."  We see that day in day out most every week on tour.  

"Everyone" isn't. Some are. Many aren't. That's what good golf should be. It shouldn't be everyone hacking out from the rough, and it shouldn't be everyone knocking it on.

Haven't checked, but I'm willing to wager a lot of money that, in those tour events with "better" winning scores, there wasn't one guy separated by a lot from the rest of the field...

Did you criticise Pebble/the USGA when Tiger romped in 2000?

One guy romping says more about the guy than the golf course.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: Hitting greens from off the fairway at a US Open - good or bad?
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2014, 04:55:37 PM »
RKoehn and T-Lav and me:

Maybe we all should wait to see how the weekend plays out before rendering judgment. As always, The Powers That Be are just The Powers That Think They Be. Mother Nature is The Power That Be (Be's?), and in 2011 plus last night she reminded us all by getting out her watering can.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Jon Cavalier

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Re: Hitting greens from off the fairway at a US Open - good or bad?
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2014, 07:58:19 PM »
Well said, Ran. I'm enjoying it immensely. I suppose if I had a single gripe it would be that the "stuff" presented a slightly higher chance of an unclean lie, for for this course, I certainly prefer the "stuff" to eight inch rough.
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David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hitting greens from off the fairway at a US Open - good or bad?
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2014, 08:10:15 PM »
Can't speak for anyone else, but I don't like to see everyone hitting the greens (and spinning the ball!) from the "rough."  We see that day in day out most every week on tour.  

"Everyone" isn't. Some are. Many aren't. That's what good golf should be. It shouldn't be everyone hacking out from the rough, and it shouldn't be everyone knocking it on.

Haven't checked, but I'm willing to wager a lot of money that, in those tour events with "better" winning scores, there wasn't one guy separated by a lot from the rest of the field...

Did you criticise Pebble/the USGA when Tiger romped in 2000?

One guy romping says more about the guy than the golf course.


+1. George, I was formulating almost these same words when I read this comment, but you beat me to it.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr