[Alex Chehansky]

I am playing Burning Tree tomorrow, I know nothing about it except it is a MacKenzie...anybody have any thoughts.  Also, any recommendations on a public layout to try the next day for me and my dad...thanks

[Brian_Gracely]

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=13422

[Alex Chehansky]

thanks for the thread notice...looks interesting, as it seems to be more about politics than golf, but I will reply to this thread after my round.

[david h. carroll]

members are pretty adamant about the fact that they held Hills in check and made sure that he didn't vary from Mackenzie intent.  Hill apparently also made some strong suggestions re: tree removal that were not completely heeded.  You'll really enjoy the experience and I think you'll be able to see that Hills (or actually the memebership) did a pretty nice job.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Burning Tree is a Colt/Alison design.  Mackenzie was basically and intern working for Colt when he helped at BT.  It would be a dis-service to credit Dr Mac for BT.  JC

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Alex-

  Enjoy your day at Burning Tree.  We are in the process of researching the golf course more, as to the architectural pedigree, construction, etc, but it is a Colt/Alison.  MacKenzie was a "junior partner" at the time, hence you won't find anything resembling his work.  
Look for the lack of fairway bunkering and abundance of left to right holes.  
The holes playing near the Beltway were changed due to the road construction--10 was originally a par 5, 11 played at a different angle to the green, and I believe 12 and 13 were shortened as well.  
Most greens are pretty quick, so stay below the hole.  Not too much undulation to speak of, a lot of hidden breaks, and most are on the small side, befitting a course that requires accuracy.  
Be sure to look at the various items in the clubhouse, e.g. clubs from ex-Presidents, flags hanging in the locker room, etc, it is a very special place.
The members sit at long tables to eat, and the area has a large picture window that looks out at 1 tee and down 1 fairway.  
  I absolutely love the club logo.  

  As far as a public layout in the area...we've had some discussions about this in the past.  My recommendation is for Beechtree or Bulle Rock, which are both about an hour north on 95, although if you head up 270 towards Frederick, there are a number of quality, high-end publics in that area as well.

   


 

[T_MacWood]

Burning Tree was designed by CH Alison for the short lived firm of Colt, MacKenzie & Alison. It was later redesigned by RTJ in the 50's or 60's. Chevy Chase was another Alison design...I believe it was renovated by Hills too.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Tom-

  Wayne and I are working with several others to determine if Flynn played a role in the course's construction.  (Note, I said construction, not design).  
RTJ played a part in the reconfiguring while the Beltway was being constructed.  It's in the club history.  
Yes, Chevy Chase was also an Alison.  Ross was there for one day in the early part of the 20th century, pre-Alison, as there was a basic course there--I believe Ross recommended changes to this course after which Alison designed a different course which was built in the same spot.
From what I remember, the plans were for sale in the UK and this was mentioned on here.  
Chevy Chase, today, for all practical purposes, is a Hills.  He did a complete redesign there several years ago, and I don't believe kept any Alison features.  

If Craig Disher is reading this, perhaps he could chime in.  

[wsmorrison]

Doug, Craig Disher, and I are looking into Flynn's involvement with a number of DC area clubs.  An Aug 18, 1923 article in the Richmond News Leader mentioned that:

"Flynn has designed some of the most famous courses in the country, including the Westchester-Biltmore, of New York, and the Columbia, of Washington.  At the present time he is laying off the courses for two new Washington clubs, the Norbeck (Manor CC) and Burning Tree."  

Although Flynn designed 27 holes for Manor CC (9 were not built according to plan) and redesigned 2 holes at Columbia, it is sure that Flynn constructed the Westchester courses and Burning Tree.  Flynn may have done subsequent redesign work at both Westchester (not sure what as yet, although bunker changes would seem to be Flynn-like in the early 1920s) and at Burning Tree where Flynn may have redesigned holes 10-13.

Flynn's quantity of work in the Washington, DC metropolitan area is unmatched outside southeastern Pennsylvania.  DC along with his work in Virginia, constitute a considerable percentage of his body of work.

Flynn constructed:
Burning Tree

Flynn designed:

Rock Creek Park municipal course
Manor Country Club
Town and Country (later Woodmont and then Glenbrook)

Flynn completly redesiged:

Beaver Dam (original Ross later known as Prince George's)
Indian Spring (original Ross)
US Naval Academy (original Collis)
Washington Golf and Country Club (original Ross)
Friendship (estate course of the McLean family, publishers    of the Washington Post)

Flynn partially redesigned:

Columbia CC (holes 1-2)
Burning Tree (holes 10-13?)

In Virginia, Flynn designed:

Norfolk CC (now Sewell's Point)
CC of Virginia, James River Course
The Cascades in Hot Springs
Yorktown Country Club (NLE)  Bill Gayne has been very helpful
obtaining info on this project

Flynn also did a redesign of the Homestead Course in Hot Springs

[Mike Worth]

Regarding Sewell's point, I thought that was a Ross.  I've seen that course credited to Ross.  Still, I've played it about 6-7 times, I must confess, I can't tell either way.

Any Ross experts know either way?

[wsmorrison]

SS1 (real name is?),

It looks at this point that Norfolk Country Club, now Sewell's Point, had 36 holes of golf at one time, 18 of which by Ross.  Old scorecards from the Ralph A. Kennedy collection in the USGA archives, show that there were two scorecards indicating a Course No. 1 and a Course No. 2 in 1926, both 9-holers played twice for an 18-hole score.  There was a third scorecard with a date of 3/18/1926 that is the Flynn golf course

There was a pre-existing course, I guess by Ross, but Flynn was designing a new course sometime in the mid-1920s.  The Flynn hole drawings and a linen routing plan are dated 9/27/1924.

Ralph Kennedy and his partner's scores on Course 1 were 84 and 85 (remember they play the same nine holes twice on Course 1 and Course 2 so a familiarity component should come into play); the scoring for Course 2 was 83 and 81; the scoring on the Flynn course was 94 and 96.  It would seem that the 18 holes on the Flynn course was significantly harder than the other 18 holes on site.

Modern aerial photographs clearly indicate that the current course is without a doubt exactly the Flynn plan albeit with small internal hole design changes.  Gone are large sandy waste areas with some discreet bunkers, an island green nearly surrounded by sand, interrupted fairways, and other sophisticated design features reminiscent of Pine Valley and other outstanding Flynn projects at the time.

I know that the current course is credited to Ross, although I haven't been there, I am told there is a photograph of Ross in the clubhouse and his name is on the scorecards.  I presented all my evidence to the club's professional and he seemed in a real bind.  He was not at all familiar with Flynn (typical) and thought the club should continue to market itself as a Ross because what good would Flynn's name do them?  So be it, but the course there today is Flynn though I believe Ault and Clark redid all the greens and they do not reflect Flynn's design tendencies.

[Mike Worth]

Wayne, thanks -- the real name is SS1.

Anyway, I doubt seriously there were 36 holes there - not enough room the area is actually a couple of feet BELOW sea level, and there are inlets, swamps, etc surrounding the area.

It may have once had alternate tees, that type of thing to create the other scorecard.

In any event, my playing of the course the 6-7 times I did so pre-dated my interest in architecture.  To be honest, from what I remember, none of it reminded me of Ross.  Having since played several good Ross courses, I'm pretty certain of that.

I can't remember the exact hole #s, but Sewell's Point has a hole that is an exact duplicate of a hole at Cobbs Creek in Philadelphia -- the hole is a longish (for the era) dog leg right par 4 - in the 460 yard range requiring a long drive where the dog leg cannot be cut off due to a large tree on the corner of the dog leg.  Assuming a good drive of 270 or so, would leave 180 or so to the green, and that assumes one didn't make the hole longer by driving left or anything.

I'm considered a long hitter now, but back before physical conditioning, and my Titelist driver, I could never reach the opening in the dogleg to make a decent chance at par.  

[wsmorrison]

SS1,
The Club had much more land when it was Norfolk CC and they sold off portions to the US Navy.  It is possible that the Ross course was on a non-contiguous portion of land.  In time the military purchased what was left over and is now Sewell's Point.  I think it nearly certain that there were 36 holes at one point.  The routing progressions of the separate courses indicate it is doubtful that the case was of alternate tees.  Unfortunately, Norfolk CC has no records of anything relating to golf, yachting and parties, yes, but not golf.

[Mike Worth]

Wayne, what you say could be, which is fine, though I don't know how far away it would have been from the current course.  Of course, I"m sure I-64 wasn't there back when Ross built his course, so this could be another victim of the interstate highway system

As Sewell's point is owned by the Naval Base, it's all the Navy's land now.  All in all, it's not a bad course.  Another example of a course that isn't as good as it used to be because of all the advances in technology, the ball, etc, and there is very little room to expand the current course due to the land constraints I noted earlier.  This has happened to most military courses.

[wsmorrison]

Correct, Bill.  Flynn's construction arm, Toomey and Flynn would have done the construction work on Burning Tree and Westchester.  On most all of Flynn's designs, Toomey and Flynn were responsible for construction with either William Gordon or Red Lawrence the construction foremen.

[Niall Hay]

Burning Tree was designed by CH Alison for the short lived firm of Colt, MacKenzie & Alison. It was later redesigned by RTJ in the 50's or 60's. Chevy Chase was another Alison design...I believe it was renovated by Hills too.

How do we know this? Why such confusion over the designer?   Sounds as though it was Alison. Why all the Mac references? Our obsession with the Good Doctor combined with the fact that they shared stationary for a few years as a “firm”?  From everything I hear from “experts” Mac had nothing to do with it and it was all Charles Alison (a underrated designer in his own right). What year did he design it? Any detail?

Also, how good is the course itself?   I know the locker room is awesome and it’s all-male. Any other insight? Any pictures?

[Carl Nichols]

Burning Tree was designed by CH Alison for the short lived firm of Colt, MacKenzie & Alison. It was later redesigned by RTJ in the 50's or 60's. Chevy Chase was another Alison design...I believe it was renovated by Hills too.

How do we know this? Why such confusion over the designer?   Sounds as though it was Alison. Why all the Mac references? Our obsession with the Good Doctor combined with the fact that they shared stationary for a few years as a “firm”?  From everything I hear from “experts” Mac had nothing to do with it and it was all Charles Alison (a underrated designer in his own right). What year did he design it? Any detail?

Also, how good is the course itself?   I know the locker room is awesome and it’s all-male. Any other insight? Any pictures?

IMHO, it's a very solid but not great course.  Several of the holes are fairly repetitive, and they've resisted the urge to add distance (I assume), which makes some of the holes -- especially the par 5's -- kinda easy.  But it's usually in great condition, doesn't get a lot of play, has a few pretty cool holes, and is a good walk.  For those reasons and the vibe, I know several guys who basically only play at BT even though they belong to another club in the area as well.

[Niall Hay]

Yeah, I've heard the same things about the members. They love it. Good for them.

[Bob_Huntley]

Yeah, I've heard the same things about the members. They love it. Good for them.

I have some friends there and they do indeed love it. The regular drink is something like six ounces in size and everyone is very mellow at days end.

Bob

[Tom MacWood]

How do we know this? Why such confusion over the designer?   Sounds as though it was Alison. Why all the Mac references? Our obsession with the Good Doctor combined with the fact that they shared stationary for a few years as a “firm”?  From everything I hear from “experts” Mac had nothing to do with it and it was all Charles Alison (a underrated designer in his own right). What year did he design it? Any detail?

Also, how good is the course itself?   I know the locker room is awesome and it’s all-male. Any other insight? Any pictures?

The probable reason for the Mackenzie reference is due to the fact Alison was working for the short-lived firm of Colt, Mackenzie & Alison at the time of BT. But Mackenzie did not come to the States until later, and it was as an independent golf architect. and Colt never returned to N.America after his visits in 1913 or 1914. It is definitely a prototypical Alison design.

It is a very good course on typically rolling DC area terrain, not unlike the land at Congressional or Columbia.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

", Chevy Chase was also an Alison.  Ross was there for one day in the early part of the 20th century, pre-Alison, as there was a basic course there--I believe Ross recommended changes to this course after which Alison designed a different course which was built in the same spot.
From what I remember, the plans were for sale in the UK and this was mentioned on here. 
Chevy Chase, today, for all practical purposes, is a Hills.  He did a complete redesign there several years ago, and I don't believe kept any Alison "

Doug you are correct on all accounts with reguards to Chevy Chase.  However, I would not say that the course today is a Hills course.  I think Mr. Hills made every effort to leave things alone and do a sympathetic restoration where he could.  There were some significant changes made due the removal of the old tenth hole to make room for a fitnes / tennis center and the construction of a water holding pond for irrigation.  Even still the routing changes were minimal and the vast majority of the greens were cored out and rebuilt to retain the original contours. 

I once had my hands on the drawing you referred to.  I made a set of copies and had Fred Hawtree and Geoffrey Corrnish try to identify them.  They sent me some letters about the drawings. I don't think they could say for sure who's work they were.

[Tom_Doak]

Burning Tree is a Colt/Alison design.  Mackenzie was basically and intern working for Colt when he helped at BT.  It would be a dis-service to credit Dr Mac for BT.  JC

That's the first time I've seen Dr. MacKenzie called an "intern," outside of the medical profession, anyway.

It might have given some of my interns great hope, if only it were true.  But I don't think MacKenzie ever had anything to do with Burning Tree at all.  He handled his own portfolio of projects when he was partners with Colt and Alison, and they rarely checked in on each other's work.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

", Chevy Chase was also an Alison.  Ross was there for one day in the early part of the 20th century, pre-Alison, as there was a basic course there--I believe Ross recommended changes to this course after which Alison designed a different course which was built in the same spot.
From what I remember, the plans were for sale in the UK and this was mentioned on here. 
Chevy Chase, today, for all practical purposes, is a Hills.  He did a complete redesign there several years ago, and I don't believe kept any Alison "

Doug you are correct on all accounts with reguards to Chevy Chase.  However, I would not say that the course today is a Hills course.  I think Mr. Hills made every effort to leave things alone and do a sympathetic restoration where he could.  There were some significant changes made due the removal of the old tenth hole to make room for a fitnes / tennis center and the construction of a water holding pond for irrigation.  Even still the routing changes were minimal and the vast majority of the greens were cored out and rebuilt to retain the original contours. 

I once had my hands on the drawing you referred to.  I made a set of copies and had Fred Hawtree and Geoffrey Corrnish try to identify them.  They sent me some letters about the drawings. I don't think they could say for sure who's work they were.

Sean-

Damn, this is old school.  These conversations were 8 years ago already, when I first joined the site (I worked at Congressional then)

[Tommy Williamsen]

Burning Tree is as close to the boys club we had as children as any club in the US. The old retired pro Max Elbin  told me years ago that regardless of how powerful or wealthy the members were they all became like little boys when they got inside the grounds.  It is a great club and a great place to be and in the spring the azaleas light up the place.  The course, however quaint it may be, is not the drawing card

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

Hey Doug,  No problem.  I never get tired of talking about these D.C. area courses.   What you up to these days?

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()