Seminole

[David_Tepper]

"I have never played another course that exposes and punishes mistakes in the short game to the same degree."

Brian Potash -

Have you played Royal Dornoch?

DT

[Mike Nuzzo]

Pat

Where are the green surfaces sexier:
Mountain Ridge or Seminole?

I don't remember the surfaces at Seminole being as sexy as at Mountain Ridge

I loved the Seminole routing / Triangulation / use of the dunes, the sense of place
But thought the flat parts between the dunes were dull and I thought only some of the bunkers looked really good - overall there were too many bunkers, or I should say that they were relied on too heavily to impact shots and decisions

Cheers

[Brian Potash]

"I have never played another course that exposes and punishes mistakes in the short game to the same degree."

Brian Potash -

Have you played Royal Dornoch?

DT

Not yet, on the list.

[David_Tepper]

Brian -

I have never played Seminole, but my guess is you will be very impressed with the short game required to score well at Royal Dornoch. I also think you will get some sense of where Donald Ross got his perspective on creating green sites.

DT

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pat M is right on on this grand course. It is one that one dreams about long after playing there. I remember playing there the same week I played at Cypress. I without a question felt if one takes away the drama of 15,16 and 17, Seminole is the better course. The ocean has the same influence at Seminole but does not provide the visual experiences.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Someone named Tiger Woods recently shot a casual 63 at Seminole:


http://www.golfchannel.com/news/morning-drive/tim-rosaforte-january-2-2012/

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve,

I recently played with a Seminole member who informed me of Tiger's round.

It's certainly a great round, but I understand that conditions were fairly benign.

Seminole could probably have, systemically, lengthened their course in an attempt to counter the advances/leaps in distance, but, I'm glad they didn't as it remains a wonderful, user friendly golf course, one that presents an enjoyable challenge, day in and day out.

Donald Ross designed a unique challenge on a windy site.
Wide fairways coupled with terrific fairway bunkers and exceptional greens /green surrounds.

He never envisioned golfers driving the ball 340 yards or more.
He never envisioned golfers hitting 3-woods 300 yards.
He never envisioned golfers hitting 6-irons 200 yards.

Seminole is relatively short by modern standards, yet it holds up marvelously to daily play.

It's got to be one of the most enjoyable courses one can play....... EVERY DAY..... And, never tire of it.

[JNC Lyon]

Tiger's 63 might be a good round there, but it is still 3 short of the course record (60, held by Claude Harmon).

[Patrick_Mucci]

JNC,

Claude's round is one for the ages, but, he did have the benefit of a far more benign 18th hole

[JC Jones]

Pat,

I forget, what year did Harmon shoot that 60?  I remember, vividly the shot by shot they have there.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat,

I've never played Seminole but I'll agree with your analysis as one who has played there. Still, a 63 is a 63 even if conditions were benign.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve,

63 is a great score, but Seminole, located on a site prone to wind, and designed with the wind in mind, is a different golf course when the wind is down.

When you hear that majestic American Flag snapping in the wind, you know it's a great "Seminole" day.

The wind is a critical design element at Seminole

[Frank M]

JNC,

Claude's round is one for the ages, but, he did have the benefit of a far more benign 18th hole

I've never really understood the necessity to defend a course simply because someone shoots a low score.

I think great scores on courses such as Seminole are a rarity rather than the rule and better attributed to the quality of someones round than the course.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Frank,

At Seminole the wind, or lack of wind often dictates scoring.

The "course" is dramatically different when the wind is absent

[cary lichtenstein]

Every club has members of all handicap ranges, the high handicappers shoot big scores because they aren't very good and the course is tough for their ability. So that's hardly a measure of architecture.

Tough green complexes are proportionately more difficult as handicaps rise.

What speed do they keep the Seminole greens at? They cannot be too quick or the wind would have the ball setting off all on its own all the time.

Our pro came back from playing in their annual member-pro event and told me the greens were firm and ran 13-14 and the wind was whipping a steady 15-20.  Many bunker shots were as Brian described, with most collecting into the bunkers due to spin.  He is a very capable bunker player and confirmed the difficulty of play in those conditions.   I doubt that's an every day set up.  Only Oakmont does that every day!

I can attest that Seminole does keep their conditions as firm and as fast as they can on a daily basis, especially in February thru May when they close.  The best conditions come in April and early May when south Florida usually is in a drought. 

About ten years ago I caddied there for two seasons and have gone around the course easily 150 times both caddying and playing (they allow caddies to play on slow afternoons).  I have seen the course play very easy after a rain and no wind to howling firm conditions where I have seen many players putt into a few bunkers! 

Overall like Pat said it is a place that one never tires of playing and even the seemingly easy shots play difficult.  Many times you are forced to play 30 feet away from the hole location with a sand wedge.  You have to know the course very well to know when to attack or play conservatively.  Saying this it is playable by many handicap levels but your short game needs to be better than average to score.

Great Post

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I forget, what year did Harmon shoot that 60?  I remember, vividly the shot by shot they have there.

JC,

Of the top of my head, I'd say 1948.

I know he played with Tonney Penna, but, I'm not certain of the year.
That clubhouse picture, depicting the round, shot by shot is fascinating.

When I get a chance, I'm going to ascertain the date and then see if I can obtain the wind conditions through historical weather records.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat

Where are the green surfaces sexier:
Mountain Ridge or Seminole?

Mike,

I'd have to say Mountain Ridge.

Mountain Ridge's greens have far, far more internal contour.

Seminole's greens don't have that much internal contour, but, rely on slope and perimeter contour.

I don't remember the surfaces at Seminole being as sexy as at Mountain Ridge,

Agreed

I loved the Seminole routing / Triangulation / use of the dunes, the sense of place.

Agreed

But thought the flat parts between the dunes were dull and I thought only some of the bunkers looked really good - overall there were too many bunkers, or I should say that they were relied on too heavily to impact shots and decisions.

When you look at how Donald Ross incorporated the dunes, he didn't leave much in the way of flat holes.

# 1 and # 10 are flat, but, # 2 and # 11 rise up, abruptly.

# 8 and # 9 are flat, unique but flat, and all of the other holes have elevation, either at the green or tee end, which is a tribute to his routing.

The genius, or one of the geniuses of Seminole may be the balance of the overall challenge irrespective of the direction of the wind.

Ross's routing is great not just because of the design of the individual holes, but because of how they play, collectively, when the wind changes direction.

There's a balance, a symmetry in the overall challenge that provides for playing each hole differently, while the overall challenge remains relatively static.  That's pretty neat.

With a North wind, I think # 10 is one of the great short par 4's in the country, especially when the hole is cut far left.
With a South wind, it's a 3-wood or iron then a short iron, a relatively benign hole.

# 17 and # 18 with a North wind play enormously different than with a south or east wind.

It's a course with 360 personalities, yet all of them result in a great/enjoyable golfing challenge and experience

Cheers

[Kevin_Reilly]

Frank,

At Seminole the wind, or lack of wind often dictates scoring.

The "course" is dramatically different when the wind is absent

I'm surprised that David Tepper did not provide these links    to Randy Haag's account of this year's Coleman.  Wind of course played a role in the round by round scoring.

http://randyhaag.com/2011/04/27/the-coleman-at-seminole-starts-thursday-its-going-to-be-tough/

http://randyhaag.com/2011/04/29/wild-weather-hits-seminole-for-round-2/

http://randyhaag.com/2011/04/30/2011-george-l-coleman-invitational-final-results/