Bob(by) Jones on "firm and fast" in 1968

[ChipOat]

Quoting Jones from Herb Wind's piece in "The New Yorker" dated 5/18/68

"The point I set out to make was that on the old, hard fast courses golf was a more exacting game and, in a way, a more exacting one.  I was discussing this with Arnold Palmer the other evening, and my position was that we've permitted ourselves to go too far in the other direction.  With our soft, holding greens today, golf has become almost entirely target golf.  You fly your shot right to your target and it settles where it lands.  Of course, mine may be an old fashioned view, but I believe that the bounce of the ball should be part of the game, and when you play a fast, resilient course, it is."

Enough said!

And you guys all thought that Tom Paul is the true disciple for "firm and fast"!

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks C -

I can't help wondering what Arnold Palmer's position was.  My guess is that he didn't quite share Bobby's views, and that Bobby was too polite to mention it outright in print.

Of all things, reading that quote reminds me of the first time I read "The Spy Who Came in from the Cold".   I came of age in the 70s and early 80s and read the book then -- and it was a shock to discover that the insights into the cold war that I thought were relatively recent had actually be around since, well, pretty much since the very beginning of that "war".

Similarly, I've been assuming that our recognition of the drawbacks related to playing mushy courses was relatively recent, and now I learn that men like Jones recognized those same drawbacks from pretty much the very moment courses first started getting mushy.

It's kind of discouraging to learn, i.e. that problems become evident right away, but that systems and people take over so that decades pass without the problems being addressed.

Peter

[BCrosby]

Peter -

Jones had been saying similar things about the importance of firm and fast well before the New Yorker piece.

I'd guess that TEP would be delighted to concede that Bobby beat him to the punch.

To your larger point, knowing a bit about the history of golf isn't just about having a bag of gotcha's to use when you want to show off. Knowing that history helps to clarify modern debates about issues that, it turns out, have been around for decades. The old guys who first dealt with them were very, very smart and often brought perspectives that have been lost. That's when history becomes most useful. Old issues keep circling back around. They remain living, breathing topics in the game. Firm and fast vs. target golf is just one of them. Listening to smart people from the past talk about that and other topics is always a good thing.

Bob    

[Phil Benedict]

To what extent did the influence of the lush, green look of ANGC contribute to the decline of fast and firm as a maintenance ideal in the US?

[BCrosby]

To what extent did the influence of the lush, green look of ANGC contribute to the decline of fast and firm as a maintenance ideal in the US?

ANGC made a major contribution. An irony that would not have been lost on Jones.

Bob

[Joe Bentham]

is it fair to say that Augusta played firm and fast during most (or all) of Jones's life?  When was the change made there?

[Phil Benedict]

I think ANGC still wants fast and firm, but they also want it to be really green.  The two are probably compatible in April if the course doesn't get too much rain.  The problem is that most courses need a lot of water to stay green in summer, which makes it harder to maintain fast and firm conditions in the peak playing season.

[JMEvensky]

is it fair to say that Augusta played firm and fast during most (or all) of Jones's life?  When was the change made there?

Has ANGC always overseeded?

[BCrosby]

The beginnings of ANGC's perfect maintenance thing is hard to date precisely. As noted above, perfect grooming is not necessarily inconsistent with firm and fast conditions.

Jones died in 1971. My sense is that at the time of his death ANGC was not noted for being especially firm and fast, Jones' views notwithstanding.

The fw's are Bermuda overseeded with rye. [edit: JME - I think they have always been overseeded. For a winter play only course, it would have been inescapable.]  I assume the greens were also overseeded until  converted to bent about 1981.

Bob

 

[JMEvensky]

Thanks.

Fast and firm on overseeded fairways is always going to be an uphill climb.

[David_Tepper]

"I can't help wondering what Arnold Palmer's position was."

PPallotta -

I recall reading an article about Arnold Palmer a while back saying that the primary reason he was successful at AGNC in the Masters was that he figured out how to play the bounces & rolls ("the ground game") there. Unlike Jack Nicklaus, AP was not a high ball-hitter who could land the ball softly on the greens.

AP also played well many times at the British Open. He did not necessarily play "target golf."

DT   

[Peter Pallotta]

DT - you may be right, but I found it interesting that Jones said (in reference to discussing the topic with AP) that it was "my position", not "our position".

Bob - you're right, but it makes it even sadder, i.e. when very very smart and influential people point out a problem/challenge/choice and then nothing is done about it, it makes me wonder how positive change ever comes about.  Perhaps it's just by accident.

Peter

[BCrosby]

Peter -

All we can do is fight the good fight.  There is no Plan B. 

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob Crosby,

Do you think the decline in F&F coincided with the ascent of Televised tournaments ?

[Steve Lang]

  I have to believe the timing of F&F started disappearing is first related to irrigation technoloigy and second the advent of color TV.. kind of similar to how steady wind doesn't break as many trees as wind with gusts. 

Being on a golf course has always been a green pleasure in spring and fall and somewhat less so in summer for muni golfers..  for the privates I suspect that as soon as the irrigation system could keep water flowing, the Supt. has always known he could keep it green with the turn of a switch or valve.

[BCrosby]

Bob Crosby,

Do you think the decline in F&F coincided with the ascent of Televised tournaments ?

TV brought an emphasis on wall-to-wall lush green turf. I suspect that was a trend even before TV. ANGC was in the vanguard of that. Getting to such conditions means a lot a watering. Ergo the decline of F&F.

BTW, I don't think TV cares per se whether a course is F&F or not. In fact, F&F makes for great TV. Maybe better than watching target golf. Following balls as they bounce and roll out can be thrilling. ANGC's 14th or 16th greens are examples everyone is familiar with.

What TV and host clubs care most about, however, is that their courses appear to be "in good condition".  Paying the price in brown, drier turf to get to F&F is not something they value as highly.  So my guess is that the decline of F&F was an indirect consequence of the preference for aesthetics over more interesting playing conditions.  (There are some courses where that trade off might not strictly apply.)

Bob

[jeffwarne]

is it fair to say that Augusta played firm and fast during most (or all) of Jones's life?  When was the change made there?

No it's not.

Augusta is built on clay.
In the winter and spring, after a period of rain, the old dormant bermuda played/plays soft.(just like any other course built on clay)

Augusta on the green rye grass plays as firm and fast as dormant bermuda when the weather cooperates.

Go play next door Augusta CC. Balls plug on the next door 8th and 9th fairway on bermuda over clay in the winter.
(I've played hundreds of winter rounds there)

I'm sick of reading that every club's overwatering issues are caused by a course that sets itself up for an anual event which is played at a time when a rye overseed allows it to be showcased at its' finest.


Find some other eason to blame the demise of golf

[Lou_Duran]

Knowing that history helps to clarify modern debates about issues that, it turns out, have been around for decades. The old guys who first dealt with them were very, very smart and often brought perspectives that have been lost. That's when history becomes most useful. Old issues keep circling back around. They remain living, breathing topics in the game. Firm and fast vs. target golf is just one of them. Listening to smart people from the past talk about that and other topics is always a good thing.  

Amen!  I have had the great fortune over the years to befriend people older than me who freely shared the wisdom they forged, sometimes through trial and error, other times from having enjoyed the same privilege of wise counsel passed down through time.

F & F is becoming chic again, albeit too slowly.  I do wonder if modern green construction and new strains of grass to accomodate faster speeds will allow for firm greens and surrounds.  It seems that most courses I play, the green approaches are soft, forcing the run-up shot to be mostly pot-luck or hit so far short that it is not a viable option.  Likewise, greens are softened so as to hold shots, otherwise, the speeds would make it for a long round of multiple chips and/or three and four putts.  Firm fairways and approaches, and receptive greens should be the new maintenance meld?

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I wouldn't rush to conclude that Jones and Palmer differed on conditions.  I once read that Palmer thought ANGC should go back to bermuda greens.  He felt they were firmer and therefore better fit the design intentions.