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Jud_T

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Re: Best Fringe Courses
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2011, 09:29:59 AM »
Andy,

Valid point, but knowing how to play the quirk and not have it blow a hole in your scorecard makes a big difference, and that takes a while for most players.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Fringe Courses
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2011, 09:31:26 AM »
Yahnundasis -- good call, technically in New Hartford and much closer to Utica than Rome.

However, in Rome, I would add Teugega to the list.

Also, a good call on Rolling Green. Just a great course. And if we're discussing Philly courses that get overlooked on a national stage, add Gulph Mills to the list.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Joe Leenheer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Fringe Courses
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2011, 09:31:46 AM »
umm...Canterbury.

How many other courses have hosted every men's rotating major...one I think.  After playing MVGC (#19 and is a fantastic place), comparably Canterbury should be no lower then 70-75 (and I'm being very cautious with that).  It's on a couple lists but has fallen from the almighty GD rankings in the past few.

The course is pure, it's got the history, it's tough, hosts majors, if they could only hire a quality Assistant Pro....maybe then they could make it back in.
Never let the quality of your game determine the quality of your time spent playing it.

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Fringe Courses New
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2011, 09:51:22 AM »
Mac:

Once again, you would be right (about the Cleveland area).  I think Cleveland suffers from the same issues as Detroit.  In Detroit, Oakland Hills dominates the scene because of his tournament history.  In Cleveland, Firestone does the same.

However, in northeast Ohio, there are great golf courses that I think are better than the notorious venues.  Below are my top 5 in northeast Ohio:

1.  Brookside - a great Ross design - it edges out the rest due to the amazing greens.  It is a beautiful rolling property.

2.  Country Club (PP) - a Flynn design - if I had to belong to one club in northeast Ohio, this would be it.  Great all around place.      

3.  Kirtland - a great Alison design.  Again, a great piece of property with Alison bunkers.  Ran's review of the course is spot on.  

4.  Canterbury - a Strong design - probably the best test of golf of the top 4.  Tree lined course.  Ran's review is again a good reference.

5.  Firestone South - RTJ design - a great test of golf with great green complexes.  However, little to no strategic design and boring routing.  You definitely should play it if given the chance.  Your reaction will be great golf course, just not that fun.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2013, 08:08:51 AM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Bill McKinley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Fringe Courses
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2011, 09:55:46 AM »
umm...Canterbury.

How many other courses have hosted every men's rotating major...one I think.  After playing MVGC (#19 and is a fantastic place), comparably Canterbury should be no lower then 70-75 (and I'm being very cautious with that).  It's on a couple lists but has fallen from the almighty GD rankings in the past few.

The course is pure, it's got the history, it's tough, hosts majors, if they could only hire a quality Assistant Pro....maybe then they could make it back in.

I agree with most of those comments about Canterbury, but would like to add one.  The golf course keeps its Golden Age charm and when it's firm and fast it is tremendous.  The use of the topography is great, as Ran stated in the writeup, one struggles to think how the property could have yeilded a better design.

And yes Joe there is one other course that has hosted all 5 (US Open, OGA, Sr. US Open, Sr. PGA, US Am)of the mens rotating US Majors: Oak Hill.

Quality Assistant Pro? Hmm... I'll let my awards and head to head match play record do the talking!
2016 Highlights:  Streamsong Blue (3/17); Streamsong Red (3/17); Charles River Club (5/16); The Country Club - Brookline (5/17); Myopia Hunt Club (5/17); Fishers Island Club (5/18); Aronomink GC (10/16); Pine Valley GC (10/17); Somerset Hills CC (10/18)

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Fringe Courses
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2011, 09:59:01 AM »

Mac:

Once again, you would be right (about the Cleveland area).  I think Cleveland suffers from the same issues as Detroit.  In Detroit, Oakland Hills dominates the scene because of his tournament history.  In Cleveland, Firestone does the same.

However, in northeast Ohio, there are great golf courses that I think are better than the notorious venues.  Below are my top 5 in northeast Ohio:

1.  Brookside - a great Ross design - it edges out the rest due to the amazing greens.  It is a beautiful rolling property. Best Ross in Ohio, including Scioto and Inverness.

2.  Kirtland - a great Alison design - it is very difficult for me not to name Kirtland first as the back 9 is just spectacular (so are 7-9 on the front).  Again, a great piece of property with Alison bunkers.  Ran's review of the course is spot on.  Also, only MV, The Golf Club, Camargo and Brookside beat it in my Ohio rankings.

3.  Country Club (PP) - a Flynn design - if I had to belong to one club in northeast Ohio, this would be it.  Great all around place.  Right behind Kirtland in my Ohio rankings.   

4.  Canterbury - a Strong design - probably the best test of golf of the top 4.  Tree lined course.  Ran's review is again a good reference. I rank it with Scioto and Inverness in my Ohio rankings.

5.  Firestone South - RTJ design - a great test of golf with great green complexes.  However, little to no strategic design and very boring routing.  You definitely should play it if given the chance.  Your reaction will be great golf course, just not that fun.


Michael - I agree 100%.  Cleveland golf is very underrrated, as is the city itself.  Maybe the great tracks in Columbus impact this?

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Fringe Courses
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2011, 10:00:07 AM »
Bill - you certainly beat Joe as a gca poster - runaway  ;D
 
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Fringe Courses
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2011, 10:12:47 AM »
I think the University of Michigan course is set to rise in the future.  I would think it should have a great shot at making top 100 classic.  I can't see any discernible difference in quality between it and Yeamans Hall - and I think its better than Rolling Green and Pine Needles.

Ciao 

why Sean?  is someone going to be working on it?  SOme good stuff there but a lot of blandness too, imho
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Fringe Courses
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2011, 10:28:15 AM »
I think the University of Michigan course is set to rise in the future.  I would think it should have a great shot at making top 100 classic.  I can't see any discernible difference in quality between it and Yeamans Hall - and I think its better than Rolling Green and Pine Needles.

Ciao 

why Sean?  is someone going to be working on it?  SOme good stuff there but a lot of blandness too, imho

Paul

I disagree.  The only parts of the course which I think could be considered bland are #1 and 15, & 17.  However,

#1 has a good green and its exciting to try and reach the green in two.

#15 has a good green.

#17 is problematic - probably because of the 15-17 stretch as much as anything. 

Devries is meant to be doing some work to the course, but I am guessing the course won't be improved that much.  I bet the publicity boosts the course.  I doubt it will make top 100 classic, but I think its also better than these in the second 100:

Belvedere
Point O'Woods
CC of Detroit
Mid Pines
Oakland Hills North
LuLu
Merion West

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Fringe Courses
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2011, 10:37:11 AM »




Devries is meant to be doing some work to the course, but I am guessing the course won't be improved that much.  


Ye of little faith!  ;)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 10:39:05 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Fringe Courses
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2011, 10:56:50 AM »
I don't know how the U of M golf course is going to improve that much.  It is still next door to that sewage plant ;)

Also, cars will still be parked on it 7 days a year (and who knows what else U of M fans do on that wonderful turf).
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Andy Troeger

Re: Best Fringe Courses
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2011, 10:58:43 AM »
Andy,

Valid point, but knowing how to play the quirk and not have it blow a hole in your scorecard makes a big difference, and that takes a while for most players.

Jud,
That's logical and I want to believe it, but other than perhaps Bobby Jones and St. Andrews I'm not familiar with many examples of golfers going to a course, hating it, and then changing their mind later. Perhaps its because they are not forced to go back, but I'm not convinced that most of them would remain open-minded enough to change their mind. They might soften their opinion, but I just don't see radical change being all that likely. Perhaps I'm the closed-minded one, because I can't give any personal examples where I've changed my mind significantly on repeat plays. If I have, its usually a negative reaction.

And lets face it, part of what makes Kingsley great is that its designed to be controversial and bold. I played Tobacco Road with the same fellow recently and he didn't care for it and I loved it (although not as much as Kingsley). I actually thought he would like Kingsley when I recommended it to him, but based on further knowledge of his preferences I don't think he'd change his mind on repeat visits.

Andy Troeger

Re: Best Fringe Courses
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2011, 11:04:57 AM »
Another one that'll get its due eventually is Pikewood National. I don't think it will debut as high as The Alotian did this time on the Digest list, but top 50 would not surprise me next time around. And its deserving of a spot around #40-50 IMO.

Both of those are deserving of making the GW Modern listing.

And while it gets credit here, Dormie Club is another that deserves a spot on those lists once it gets enough ratings. Mac's mention of Rock Creek is another good one.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Fringe Courses
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2011, 11:10:11 AM »
Andy,

OK first impressions do matter in the matters of love and GCA.  FYI- Mike has said that the course wasn't designed to be intentionally controversial.  He simply used the admittedly severe land forms to the best of his ability.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Steve Salmen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Fringe Courses
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2011, 12:33:49 PM »
I'd make the market on how many times you've played the course 1-2 based on your comments, and perhaps that's part of the problem with the raters.

I've played it once and I am not a rater.

At a member's club like this that takes more than a few plays to get your head around slam-bam thank you mam bedpost notching types may come away scratching their heads.

Jud, I don't whether you are:1. Insulting me for my comments (more likely) or 2. Inviting me to play it again to change my opinion.

You are not going to change my mind, and my opinion is less likely to change because your comments make me not feel welcome to play your course again.

 I belong to Wolf Run in Zionsville.  It has two holes I think are really stupid.  #9 and #13.  There are other areas I am not fond of.  Regardless I'm not going to come to the defense of all negative comments about the course, and certainly not say nasty things about said person.  That being said, I thing Wolf Run is wonderful and a great test of one's ability.

You wrote some decent responses to my critique.  I don't understand why you went off on the other stuff.  Keep it civil. 

There is a reason both courses are not in the top 100. 

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Fringe Courses
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2011, 12:46:39 PM »
Steve,

No offense intended.  I wasn't referring to you specifically and certainly don't put you in the bedpost notching camp.  Bad attempt at humor perhaps.  You are always welcome to join me at Kingsley.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 12:55:19 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Andy Troeger

Re: Best Fringe Courses
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2011, 12:51:04 PM »
Jud,
I believe that. But he certainly didn't shy away from features that would be controversial. That's what makes it good IMO.

Steve,
FWIW, I think Wolf Run should be in the top 30 nationally. I think I'm a bit of an outlier on that too, but I liked #9 and #13. Both are exceptionally difficult, but so's the rest of the course. #16 might be my favorite short par three not located on the Monterey Peninsula. Its perhaps the most fun "super-hard" course I've played.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Fringe Courses
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2011, 01:19:15 PM »
That being said, after two stiff Manhattans, this is my opinion:

#1 absolutely sucks--up-down-up-down-up
#2 absolutely sucks- fly an approach to an unstoppable green to a pin placement cut tight
#3,4,5, pretty good holes
#6 Horrible approach, unless you live for uphill chips
#7 One of the worst tee shots in golf, unless you love hitting a good shot and winding up in trees or behind them.
#8 I like this hole
#9 Hit and hope
I like the back except the approach to #15.


Steve - i dont have an issue with your opinion of the holes even though i dont agree with many of them.  Based on your follow up comment about playing the course once I do disagree with some of your comments that seem like broad sweeping generalizations that are more likely what you saw happen with one foursome on a one time basis.
#1 - Interested in more detail on your thoughts on #1. Up and down doesn't seem to do your strong opinion justice. I know some people that aren't in love with the hole but never heard someone with a strong enough opinion to say it sucks.

#2 - it isnt a pin seeker hole for sure but shots hold on that green in all but the windiest and firmest conditions. I've seen players of many abilities land and hold the green.  I get that it is severe and some don't like it but your characterization of the hole is not realistic.

#6 - I don't understand the uphill chip comment. To be chipping you would likely need to have driven the ball through the neck. If so, great shot but the resulting chip wouldn't be all that uphill. Guessing you
Meant something more like an uphill pitch, though if you find the left side of the fairway it isn't all that uphill.

#7 - I dispute that good shots end up behind the trees here. Shots that the golfer thinks are well played and well struck may end up behind the trees if the golfer isn't given good advice or doesn't understand where to play the shot but I think the result you mentioned dictates that it was not a good shot. I have seen what I'd guess to be a pretty good percentage of tee shots hit the fairway here, again other than on the most extreme windy and firm days.  I've seen scratch and low handicappers do it from the tips or the blues and ive seen mid handicappers do it with regularity from the blue tees - with both drivers and hybrids. Once you get off to a good start from the tee in that hole it is a blast to play. One of my favs on the front nine.

#9 - from the majority of the tees it is not hit and hope. From the tips of the south tees, it is hit and hope for me but I have a reasonable shot at par from every other tee on that hole to just about ever pin.

#15 - alot of people take issue with this one, so the comment doesn't surprise me and i dont have a problem with some taking issue with it.  I like it alot and think it works fine give the surrounding hole on the back nine. But the appreciation for stronger players with multiple plays once they hit the GIR or card that birdie or par.

While, as Jud said, it is certainly a members course and one comes to love all the holes if one enjoys that style of golf, I do think that one or two rounds is enough to know if you are going to love it. I was enamoured after one time around and it gets better with each play.  So it is likely that you'd never grow to love it if it isn't your style, but I'd love to see you around the course and have the debate while we play it!



Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Fringe Courses
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2011, 01:50:09 PM »
umm...Canterbury.

How many other courses have hosted every men's rotating major...one I think.  After playing MVGC (#19 and is a fantastic place), comparably Canterbury should be no lower then 70-75 (and I'm being very cautious with that).  It's on a couple lists but has fallen from the almighty GD rankings in the past few.

The course is pure, it's got the history, it's tough, hosts majors, if they could only hire a quality Assistant Pro....maybe then they could make it back in.

I agree with most of those comments about Canterbury, but would like to add one.  The golf course keeps its Golden Age charm and when it's firm and fast it is tremendous.  The use of the topography is great, as Ran stated in the writeup, one struggles to think how the property could have yeilded a better design.

And yes Joe there is one other course that has hosted all 5 (US Open, OGA, Sr. US Open, Sr. PGA, US Am)of the mens rotating US Majors: Oak Hill.

Quality Assistant Pro? Hmm... I'll let my awards and head to head match play record do the talking!

Bill...I agree.   It oozes Golden Age charm.  And the turf was an absolute mind blower for me.  Wonderful to strike the ball off of...wonderful to bump and run...great greens...great and almost seamless transition from fairway to green. 

Great course...under-rated.  IMO.  Although it did jump a bit in the Golfweek ratings last year. 
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Fringe Courses
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2011, 04:03:38 PM »
umm...Canterbury.

How many other courses have hosted every men's rotating major...one I think.  After playing MVGC (#19 and is a fantastic place), comparably Canterbury should be no lower then 70-75 (and I'm being very cautious with that).  It's on a couple lists but has fallen from the almighty GD rankings in the past few.

The course is pure, it's got the history, it's tough, hosts majors, if they could only hire a quality Assistant Pro....maybe then they could make it back in.

As late as 1999 Canterbury was still top 100 World per Golf Magazine, having peaked at 71 in 1987.

If you are fishing for candidates from past lists, here's a compilation of the 100 World lists of Golf Magazine from 1983 onward, based on some work that Ran posted (from a gentleman in Japan).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqVfI8kT3-pLdFc4TEd2dHhXbXRBT2U4bW1kbi02dnc&hl=en_US#gid=1
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Scott Stearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Fringe Courses
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2011, 01:31:32 PM »
CC of D--will it / should it move up in the rankings?

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