Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!

[Kalen Braley]

"Unfortunately the immutable laws of physics contradict the whole premise of your account.
Allow me to reconstruct this if I may for Miss Benes as I've heard this story a number of times.
Newman, Kramer, if you'll indulge me.
According to your story Hernandez passes you and starts walking up the ramp.
Then you say you were struck on the right temple.
The spit then proceeds to ricochet off the temple striking Newman between the third and fourth rib.
The spit then came off the rib made a right turn hitting Newman in the right wrist causing him to drop his baseball cap.
The spit then splashed off the wrist, In mid air mind you...
Makes a left turn, and lands on Newman's left thigh.
That is one magic loogie"

[Mike Golden]

"Unfortunately the immutable laws of physics contradict the whole premise of your account.
Allow me to reconstruct this if I may for Miss Benes as I've heard this story a number of times.
Newman, Kramer, if you'll indulge me.
According to your story Hernandez passes you and starts walking up the ramp.
Then you say you were struck on the right temple.
The spit then proceeds to ricochet off the temple striking Newman between the third and fourth rib.
The spit then came off the rib made a right turn hitting Newman in the right wrist causing him to drop his baseball cap.
The spit then splashed off the wrist, In mid air mind you...
Makes a left turn, and lands on Newman's left thigh.
That is one magic loogie"

All this from the very sick mind of Larry David...

[Bill_McBride]

"Unfortunately the immutable laws of physics contradict the whole premise of your account.
Allow me to reconstruct this if I may for Miss Benes as I've heard this story a number of times.
Newman, Kramer, if you'll indulge me.
According to your story Hernandez passes you and starts walking up the ramp.
Then you say you were struck on the right temple.
The spit then proceeds to ricochet off the temple striking Newman between the third and fourth rib.
The spit then came off the rib made a right turn hitting Newman in the right wrist causing him to drop his baseball cap.
The spit then splashed off the wrist, In mid air mind you...
Makes a left turn, and lands on Newman's left thigh.
That is one magic loogie"

All this from the very sick mind of Larry David...

A good Jewish boy from Brooklyn, right? 

[Mike Golden]

"Unfortunately the immutable laws of physics contradict the whole premise of your account.
Allow me to reconstruct this if I may for Miss Benes as I've heard this story a number of times.
Newman, Kramer, if you'll indulge me.
According to your story Hernandez passes you and starts walking up the ramp.
Then you say you were struck on the right temple.
The spit then proceeds to ricochet off the temple striking Newman between the third and fourth rib.
The spit then came off the rib made a right turn hitting Newman in the right wrist causing him to drop his baseball cap.
The spit then splashed off the wrist, In mid air mind you...
Makes a left turn, and lands on Newman's left thigh.
That is one magic loogie"

All this from the very sick mind of Larry David...

A good Jewish boy from Brooklyn, right? 

Where else?

[TEPaul]

"Stone is definitely high up on the propaganda scale, but Philly golf has sure developed its own interesting stories over the years, from Wilson's 1910 trip prior to designing Merion to Crump's tooth ache to Flynn designing a golf course at age 19. When propaganda is accepted as truth, heaven help those who challenge it."


Mr. MacWood:

The "stories" emanating out of Philadelphia over the years are probably no more unlikely or untrue than any other region. You mention Philadelphia this way as you do so often on here because obviously you have a burr up your ass over Philadelphia for reasons that're probably your own more than something to do with Philadelphia or their golf community.

The story about Crump's teeth is true (not that you would know that) even if not the cause of his death. Suicide was not something that most families wanted to admit to so obviously Crump's mother asked the police or newspapers to not get into the cause of his death. The fact that you have no real understanding or empathy for that situation and are only willing to blow your own horn because you brought it to light when perhaps hundreds of others over the years could have but didn't since they always knew that rumor shows me what a real crumb-bum you truly are.

But as far as rumors go this is precisely why we constantly counterpoint you and that other guy you're aligned with---we don't want even more rumors and untrue stories to infiltrate the course histories of this area such as Barker or Macdonald designing Merion East. That is untrue and most everyone knows that now. We do not want someone to think that's true fifty or a hundred years from now because of the ridiculous speculations of a couple of guys in 2008 who don't and didn't understand a course or club like Merion's history.

[PThomas]

Mike,

The other night my son and I watched a documentary on The History Channel that summarized the entire JFK assasination. It covered Oswald, The Mob, JFK the movie, Johnson and Jack Ruby. It was extremely well done with maybe only an open question or two about Jack Ruby. They had built computer models that addressed the "single bullet theory" and made it fact.

I thought your post was equally well done.

As a former Philly guy, I was really only shocked when Tom Paul said above that Merion (at least the minority that actually cares about this stuff, certainly most of my friends there do not really care) was very interested in the findings of David Moriarity's essay.

Philly has a long long history of being insular dating back on record to the 1844 Philadephia Nativism Riots so my view was that they wanted to preserve the legend of Hugh Wilson.

However, I believe Tom that his friends at Merion were interested and open to the historical questions, but unfortunately David's essay did not meet their expectations and I can see why.

It seems it should remain a "grey area" of sorts as you mention above until someone finds new evidence or builds some sort of JFK computer model. Of course, I doubt that it will stop on GCA for now.

PS. If you have an interest in playing Sugarloaf near Orlando at the end of the year with the former poster Pete Buczykowski and me, shoot me an IM.

Mike,

I also viewed the JFK program on the History Channel and seeing Costner as Garrison, made me realise that Oliver Stone, a brillant film maker,  is probably the best propagandist since Leni Riefenstahl.

Bob

the History Channel show you guys are referring to was, i am 99% sure, the same one that was first aired by ABC/narrated by the late Peter Jennings, on the 40th anniversary of the assination....a VERY well done show imho

and it amazing how much "dramatic license"(Stone's phrase) took during the movie..for ex, ingnoring how Gov. Connally was NOT seating directly in front of Kennedy, ignoring how his seat was also below the level of JFK's and how his body was turned at the time of the 2nd shot...all of which made it possible for a single bullet to do all the damage it dead, without turning and pausing in mid air, which is what Stone would have you believe

[TEPaul]

Paul Thomas:

Oliver Stone was an historical propagandist and revisionist of the highest order. MacWood and Moriarty are cut from the same cloth but they will never be as good or as persuasive in their architectural speculations and revisionisms as Stone was in the arena of political revisionist history. Stone is an excellent movie maker but just looking at and listening to the guy always pissed me off as it was so obvious to see how he was only trying to promote himself. Some things like that never change!

[Sean_A]

Paul Thomas:

Oliver Stone was an historical propagandist and revisionist of the highest order. MacWood and Moriarty are cut from the same cloth but they will never be as good or as persuasive in their architectural speculations and revisionisms as Stone was in the arena of political revisionist history. Stone is an excellent movie maker but just looking at and listening to the guy always pissed me off as it was so obvious to see how he was only trying to promote himself. Some things like that never change!

Tom P

Don't lose sight of reality.  Stone is in the entertainment business.

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

One thing I have figured out about internet discussion boards is that you can never convince anyone of anything ... .

Mike, you will never convince me of that. 

Dave, of that there is no doubt.  I'm sure that by the year 2015 the 'cheater line' thread will have over 1,000 pages-I wonder what the Over/Under is on that

Mike Golden,

I'm confident that by 2015 Shivas will have prevailed and that the USGA will have seen the light and banished the practice.

[RJ_Daley]

Yes, the line will be banned, probably in the wake of the re-institution of the stymie rule which will come about in 2014.

[Patrick_Mucci]

RJ,

There's no doubt that reinstituting the stymie rule would reintroduce strategy and DEFENSE into the game.

I'm quite surprised, in this day and age of "edginess" that it hasn't gained more momentum.

I suspect that superintendents would not be in favor of reinstating the practice.

[Ted Kramer]

RJ,

There's no doubt that reinstituting the stymie rule would reintroduce strategy and DEFENSE into the game.

I'm quite surprised, in this day and age of "edginess" that it hasn't gained more momentum.

I suspect that superintendents would not be in favor of reinstating the practice.

Is it fair to assume that with regards to the PGA Tour the Stymie could/would only be used in match play events?

If that were not the case, you'd end up with "teams".
And group pairings would become incredibly important.

I have no objection to the stymie rule in match play.

-Ted

[Ulrich Mayring]

The stymie rule is great, we just need a small addition that abolishes any penalty strokes for hitting your opponent's ball. That would be a gigantic boon for strategy ;-)

If anything, then this thread has finally coaxed me into reading the Merion article. To me it appears to be fairly well-researched, if a little under-sourced. However, one part which I found to be somewhat of a conjecture is following this quote from Wilson:

Our ideals were high and fortunately we did get a good start in the correct principles of laying out the holes, through the kindness of Messrs. C. B. Macdonald and H. J. Whigham.

I have difficulties understanding this to mean "constructing the holes, i. e. laying them out into the already planned-out ground". Instead, this sounds like golf course architecture to me.

I do buy the stated timetable and the theory that Wilson got started, when there was already a routing established. I don't buy that Wilson considered himself just a constructor and realizer of other men's plans.

Ulrich

[TEPaul]

"Tom P
Don't lose sight of reality.  Stone is in the entertainment business."


Sean:

I'm probably not the one you should be explaining that to. You should be explaining it to about 100 million other Americans. 


Ulrich:

There is no penalty if your ball in play hits your opponent's ball.



"There's no doubt that reinstituting the stymie rule would reintroduce strategy and DEFENSE into the game."

Patrick:

Defense???   

This is the best example yet that you should not speak or write on here about the fundamental principles of the game of golf without checking with me first. One of the real beauties and most unique features of the game of golf is a player's ball is in no way vied for as it is in most every other stick and ball game. The stymie as defense is a form of vying with an opponent's ball.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ulrich,

At least this thread stimulated your curiosity.   The only problem with the second part of your understanding is the later finding that no routing had been agreed upon until May 1911, when CB Macdonald helped the Merion Committee pick the best of their five proposed routings.

As far as the stymie....once again, Patrick is wrong. 

[Kalen Braley]

Ulrich,

At least this thread stimulated your curiosity.   The only problem with the second part of your understanding is the later finding that no routing had been agreed upon until May 1911, when CB Macdonald helped the Merion Committee pick the best of their five proposed routings.

As far as the stymie....once again, Patrick is wrong. 

And all this time I had thought Al Gore was the one who made the final Merion pick along with inventing the internet, global warming, etc.   

[PThomas]

Paul Thomas:

Oliver Stone was an historical propagandist and revisionist of the highest order. MacWood and Moriarty are cut from the same cloth but they will never be as good or as persuasive in their architectural speculations and revisionisms as Stone was in the arena of political revisionist history. Stone is an excellent movie maker but just looking at and listening to the guy always pissed me off as it was so obvious to see how he was only trying to promote himself. Some things like that never change!

Tom P

Don't lose sight of reality.  Stone is in the entertainment business.

Ciao

true Sean but that movie was made and promoted in such a way that i think a lot of people believed everything that was in it, unfortunately

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ted Kramer,

You're correct, the Stymie was only employed in match play.

When a ball was within six (6) inches of the hole it was suspended.

That's why scorecards were at six inches in length, to measure if a ball was within six inches of the hole.

TEPaul,

I believe that the Stymie was only eliminated in 1951, the year you took up golf.