News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


michael damico

  • Karma: +0/-0
'Jam Session' design
« on: October 03, 2011, 02:10:24 PM »
I was perusing through the new GCA Magazine (digitally) and came across the new De Swinkelsche project where Mr. Pont is designing a 27 hole course south of the Netherlands. He is inviting the GCAtlas memeber Jeff Mingay to be involved in a collaborative design process and offer opinions about the new site. He is eluding to this as the "equivalent of a jam session in building a golf course".

We all are aware of the major courses that had several architect's contribute to the design (PV to top the list), but what are some more, lesser known courses where this happened? How come this doesn't happen more often?
"without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible"
                                                                -fz

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: 'Jam Session' design
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2011, 12:17:26 AM »
Michael:

The first project I ever worked on, we had Pete and Alice Dye living there, P.B. Dye doing a lot of the shaping, Bobby Weed as the grow-in superintendent, and four future architects [Ron Farris, Scott Pool, David Savic, and me] on a crew of about ten!

I always figured that was the way to go.  Somebody asked me about Black Forest at an event today, and I mentioned that we basically had a crew of three -- me, Gil Hanse, and Mike DeVries.  Someday, somebody's going to look back at my crew for Ballyneal or Stonewall and perhaps those crews will have ever bigger career accomplishments.

The bottom line is that it takes a lot of talented people to build a great course.  I think you're getting hung up with "who's the designer" or you'd realize that great collaborations happen all the time.

michael damico

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 'Jam Session' design
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2011, 08:44:03 AM »
Tom,

I think that's just the thing: there isn't enough credit given to the rest of the crew; the credit usually ends up going to an individual.

Are there examples where an architect has consistently had 'jam sessions', asking local (regional) designers to come in and offer advice, even if that advice isn't taken? It seems that all you ever hear is the bottom line.
"without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible"
                                                                -fz

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 'Jam Session' design
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2011, 09:08:21 AM »
I think there is a big difference between a team conducting a design, build and grow-in and an architect inviting other outside architects in to the fray...

With the first, people usually have an idea of their responsibilities, expertise and limitations whilst combining to make a greater whole... every golf course is built like this to a greater or lesser extent.

The second method can be much more confrontational if not approached and set out right... Two head honchos is never a good plan... The odd idea from visitors, friends and other architects is usually welcome I would say...

i.e. Jam sessions work when you are jamming with your regular crew... Supergroups can often end in a mess... 

michael damico

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 'Jam Session' design
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2011, 09:43:11 AM »
couldn't have said it better myself Ally, but there are those sessions where say, Albert Hall and SRV meet and produce something special. On the other hand you have something along the lines of Dylan and the Dead where it just doesn't mesh.

The supergroup concept is something that you go into the project with an idea of the members as opposed to a jam session, which might lead to the formation of a supergroup.

This article seems to have a little of both; Pont is asking Mingay to come over and offer advice, after he has laid out the course and not involving him in any prior aspects of the design process.

I would think a true 'jam session' would have involved Mingay (or any other designer) in most aspects of the design, but that's my take on it.
"without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible"
                                                                -fz

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: 'Jam Session' design
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2011, 11:43:01 AM »
Michael:

I don't know much about music, but isn't it much more common for two stars to collaborate on a single song, rather than on an entire album?  That's the difference to me.  I listen to other people's ideas about individual golf holes all the time ... you don't even have to be a designer, you just have to have a good idea when we're out there building it.  But, trying to co-design an entire course is a lot harder.  I still prefer to be the one who decides whether a certain feature or idea fits into the course as a whole.

Peter Pallotta

Re: 'Jam Session' design
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2011, 12:12:34 PM »
"jam session" is a great term, Michael, and for me one that has a lot of resonance (in a dfferent way than it does for Tom D and other professional architects).  The great jam sessions I think are characterized not by a blurring of individual talents for the sake of the whole, but instead by a heightening of those talents, a celebration of and support for those talents -- and this via one key processs, i.e. LISTENING...an active and continual listening.  

Peter
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 12:15:22 PM by PPallotta »

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 'Jam Session' design
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2011, 01:29:03 PM »
Guys, I obviously should try to explain better what I had in mind when I mentioned the term jam session to Adam Lawrence. But I am now leaving for an early meeting tomorrow morning at Le Touquet in France, only back on Friday, so it will have to wait till then, please have patience.

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 'Jam Session' design
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2011, 01:43:42 PM »
The reason why I mentioned the term jam session when I talked to Adam Lawrence was because I was trying to find a term for a free format exchange of ideas between people who respect and like each other outside of an employment situation.

I got thinking about this when I read a quote on one of the discussion here by Tom Doak in which he stated that he felt that his work was pushed to a next level by the creative input of all the talented people on his team.
 
Now he and many other firms do this in the format of a company with a leader and many employees. That is a fine structure, given that most of the capitalistic world is organized that way, but it does not work for me. The reason is that after having managed 60-80 people for an extended period in my last job I know just how much I dislike having to manage personnel.  That was one of the key reasons to start my own firm and to stay a one man band.  I really love having the freedom of being my own boss but, at the same time I miss the creative exchange of ideas with people of similar intelligence I used to have at university, in offshore engineering, in strategic consulting and to a lesser extent in I-banking.

Couple that with the fact that any architect who is really good in the end wants to be his own boss if he has the skills, the guts and the economic freedom to try it, and the idea then is born to find non employment ways to work together.  Free form cooperation’s where you work together on a project, make sure people credit for the ideas they bring in, get paid fairly for the input deliver and try to make the best possible golf course.

In some sense it is like open source software development where the end goal of a good product is more important than the ego’s involved or the brand of the product.

That is how I thought of a jam session as a good proxy for what I was trying to describe, even though it of course doesn’t completely cover the concept.  In a jam session a group of musicians who have no hierarchical relationship with each other play music together, whereby through improvisation, happenstance and group dynamics sometimes something more beautiful emerges than when the same group of players would have performed a rehearsed number as a band.

I’m lucky that I can afford to be in this business to just do the things I want to do, and to work with people I like and trust. As such I am very happy that I am working with someone as talented as Conor Walsh at de Swinkelsche, and why I invited Jeff Mingay to come and have a look and pitch in ideas during the works. And yes I would have even liked to have involved others earlier on in the routing process, say someone like Mike Nuzzo who I think is outstanding in that area from what I have seen. Or someone as nice and talented as Brian Schneider to suggest how to get the design better.  Or someone with as much passion and drive for the details of designing a golf course as Tony Ristola.
I’m in this business to become as good as I can get, and the only way you learn is by interacting with and getting feedback from very talented people, be it complementary or much more useful very critical. I would love working with many talented people, and would gladly share the credit of success, if the result is that we build a much more creative and refreshing golf course as a result.

Excuse me if this has been a bit rambling, I’m planning to write an article for one of the golf magazines on this idea together with Jeff Mingay after he has visited Swinkelsche, and his writing skills are infinitely better than mine so maybe he will be able to formulate better what the idea behind the golf design “jam session” is.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: 'Jam Session' design
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2011, 02:37:11 PM »
Frank:

Pardon me for asking, but what's the financial model for jamming?  You get a lot of guys to contribute their ideas to your project in exchange for a nice mention in the brochure?  Or, do you pay them some sort of consulting fee out of your fee?

My approach has always been to take charge of the shaping of the course, so that the shapers can get paid decently for their design input at the same time they're actually BUILDING something.  I would think it would be a lot harder to sell a client on paying multiple designers.

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 'Jam Session' design
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2011, 03:19:28 PM »
Tom,

good question. I think it would be a combination of consulting fees, pay for expenses, and sometimes just offering visitors a bed and food. And use the proces of reciprocity. I would be happy to invest time in someone who I like and who has made an time investment in me.

Example, I arranged the flights of jeff Mingay to Europe, he spends some time on site and probably comes up with some good ideas and changes to what I had in mind, but also gets to play some cool courses in the UK and Benlux during thjat same trip. I would similarly be happy to visit him at a certain point in the future to do the same on a project where he is working on.

Similarly I would be happy to look over a routing, to critique a green design, or anything else I could contribute on if someone I like and care about asked me for it, and if I had the time, and I would not automatically charge money for that. I make enough to have a good living so I can afford  t do some stuff for free with guys I like.

In that respect I would expect to form some sort of group of similar minded people who would/could form a brain pool to help each other.

With regards to credit, I do not see it just as a nice mention in the brochure. If Jeff or Conor or who else comes up with something brilliant when woking with me, they deserve and I will make sure that they get the full credit for that brilliance in places like this, and when people realize how good they are will benefit from that on their future work. And the same applies to ideas I contribute on other projects.


Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 'Jam Session' design
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2011, 10:21:10 AM »
Frank,

Playing a little on the devil's advocate side here, do you think you'd be quite as willing to give over that credit if you no longer remained the sole design credit on the course?... If it became a Pont, Mingay and Walsh course when clearly you are the head honcho (design wise) and just picking the architect's brains (in the case of Mingay) and shaping expertise (in the case of Walsh) of people you respect, regardless of what the financial arrangements are...

I think it is always a good thing to receive advice and opinions from others, to work in a team... So long as someone has final decision responsibility and the others know exactly that...

Sure, bandying about various design ideas is half the fun, isn't it?

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 'Jam Session' design
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2011, 05:20:04 PM »
Ally,

to be honest I do not care to much about how much credit I get when there is a collaborative effort building a golf course. I would rather build a fantastic golf course and get less credit and money than the reverse.  Maybe I can afford to have this attitude because I'm pretty good in selling projects and I also am in a pretty safe financial situation.

This is not to say I do not care about credit, see the response I gave on the Hayling Island thread, I hate to be short changed when I have given important/vital input.

With regard to final decision making responsibility, I'm also a strong enough personality to make sure the project, as collaborative as it will become, still will be managed well.


Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 'Jam Session' design
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2011, 03:52:18 AM »
Ally,

to be honest I do not care to much about how much credit I get when there is a collaborative effort building a golf course. I would rather build a fantastic golf course and get less credit and money than the reverse.  Maybe I can afford to have this attitude because I'm pretty good in selling projects and I also am in a pretty safe financial situation.

This is not to say I do not care about credit, see the response I gave on the Hayling Island thread, I hate to be short changed when I have given important/vital input.

With regard to final decision making responsibility, I'm also a strong enough personality to make sure the project, as collaborative as it will become, still will be managed well.



Frank, I think your last sentence is key.... In my opinion, a collaborative effort can only really work when there is someone with final decision making responsibility should disagreements arise... That's not to say that any of those disagreements ever reach a stage of confrontation... But the nature of design is that different people have different views so there will always be differing opinions...

After that, I agree that credit matters less... So long as ones vision hasn't been compromised by having to concede too many points to others...

I do not mean autocracy... After all, even democracy needs its leaders...

(N.B. Of course I also agree that a collection of great minds will come up with more great ideas than just one)

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 'Jam Session' design
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2011, 06:15:32 AM »
Agree, its all about working and brainstorming with friends/colleagues one likes and trusts, and in the end someone makes a final decission.