[Ian Andrew]

Bill,

It was a generalization, it had as much to do with another thread as it did with a couple of comments on this one.


Regards,

Ian

[Pete Blaisdell]

Who's taking driver out of anyone's hands? In the situations that have been noted, one can still hit driver but you're being asked to hit it straight, to be accurate and to put risk into the equation. Holes such as the 8th at Pebble where the fairway runs out, well, that's differant. If in many cases, the long hitter wants reward with the driver, he has to assume the risk. Iset up golf courses for professionals on the mini tours for seven years and I would  hear that argument alot from the bombers--You took the driver out of my hands on 14-No, I did not. I asked you to assume the risk and trust your ability and nerve if you wanted to hit driver. That's your call, not mine.

[David Whitmer]

Carl

What do you mean by take the driver out of the hand?  For some that means the risk is too great to hit driver and for others it means a well struck driver on line will not only not be rewarded, but may well be dead.

Ciao

Being a long hitter myself, I have no problem with Sean's first definition of "take the driver out of the hand." However, it drives me nuts when I am faced with multiple situations where a well-struck driver on line will get me in trouble (one or two per round is okay). It drives me nuts when people and architects talk about certain designs that specifically try to stifle the long hitter. Why go after the long hitter? Isn't that a skill in and of itself? If you're going to design holes that go after the long hitter, will you also go after the good iron player? The good putter? The exceptional bunker player?

I expect to be challenged off the tee just as anyone else is, no matter how far they hit the ball. But, please don't design something and decide you need to reign in the long hitter. Don't punish me for a skill I possess...I don't possess that many skills, and I need all I can get!

[Sean_A]

Carl

What do you mean by take the driver out of the hand?  For some that means the risk is too great to hit driver and for others it means a well struck driver on line will not only not be rewarded, but may well be dead.

Ciao

Being a long hitter myself, I have no problem with Sean's first definition of "take the driver out of the hand." However, it drives me nuts when I am faced with multiple situations where a well-struck driver on line will get me in trouble (one or two per round is okay). It drives me nuts when people and architects talk about certain designs that specifically try to stifle the long hitter.

That about sums it up for me...concerning design and flat belllies. 

Ciao

[Garland Bayley]

Carl

What do you mean by take the driver out of the hand?  For some that means the risk is too great to hit driver and for others it means a well struck driver on line will not only not be rewarded, but may well be dead.

Ciao

Being a long hitter myself, I have no problem with Sean's first definition of "take the driver out of the hand." However, it drives me nuts when I am faced with multiple situations where a well-struck driver on line will get me in trouble (one or two per round is okay). It drives me nuts when people and architects talk about certain designs that specifically try to stifle the long hitter. Why go after the long hitter? Isn't that a skill in and of itself? If you're going to design holes that go after the long hitter, will you also go after the good iron player? The good putter? The exceptional bunker player?

I expect to be challenged off the tee just as anyone else is, no matter how far they hit the ball. But, please don't design something and decide you need to reign in the long hitter. Don't punish me for a skill I possess...I don't possess that many skills, and I need all I can get!

I am wondering who in this thread, or anywhere for that matter, has been advocating "where a well-struck driver on line" will get the player in trouble. The ODGs I referred to didn't advocate it. They did not advocate reigning in the long hitter.

To a certain extent reigning in the long hitter is a new phenomenon, because the ball has not been reigned in. The longer the ball, the more separation between short hitters and long hitters, the harder to make courses suitable for both. Since it is the shorter hitters that are paying the bills, it is best to design a course for the short hitters, which seems to me to be Tom Doak's MO.

[Garland Bayley]

I played with a really good, really long hitter yesterday in a member guest. We played the forward tees, and a few short doglegs and a couple of creeks kept the driver out of his hand on all but 7 holes (should have been only 6...) He never hit driver on back-to-back holes and never got into a rhythm with the big stick. I could see him getting frustrated. I'm not as long as him, so I hit driver far more often and scored much better.
...

It seems to me that this is not a long hitter, but rather a wild hitter that gets in a groove from time to time and has some success with long hitting. Many of the tour players are long hitters. They don't get "out of their groove" by hitting fairway metals, hybrids, and irons from tees.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

I don't think that there's anything you can do to get an intelligent long hitter out of rhythm.

[Garland Bayley]

Bill,

I don't think that there's anything you can do to get an intelligent playing long hitter out of rhythm.

I think probably there are lots of intelligent long hitters that don't play intelligently. I.e., they are better classified as wild hitters that would be advised to shorten it up a bit, but they just love the long ball.

[David Cronheim]

I'm a pretty long hitter. I carry about 270, so on a normal course, I'm in the 290s and occasionally over 300. I have to agree with the first comment in this thread. I find short courses often can throw me off my game with the driver because of how narrow the windows are to land the ball. You end up using the driver as you would an iron, trying to hit it on a line and to a certain distance. That absolutely can throw you off your game. If you try to hit a "hero" drive on every short par 4, you'll score horribly. I've learned to lay it back with a 3 iron or a 2 iron and take my short wedge.

[Tim Martin]

Bill,

I don't think that there's anything you can do to get an intelligent long hitter out of rhythm.

I agree. If he is intelligent he would club down. Bill`s initial post says he is really good and really long. I would equate "really good" with intelligent.

[David Cronheim]

Bill,

I don't think that there's anything you can do to get an intelligent long hitter out of rhythm.

I agree. If he is intelligent he would club down. Bill`s initial post says he is really good and really long. I would equate "really good" with intelligent.

Well said - clubbing down seems to be the appropriate play in most instances. At the same time, most us bemoan the fact that the driver has become a specialty club...more proof the USGA let this whole thing get away from them.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,

I don't think that there's anything you can do to get an intelligent long hitter out of rhythm.

Pat,

Is is not so much to take them out of rythm, but to make it hard for them to get into rhythm. I  am moderatlely long, but never consider myself a great driver of the ball. I watch guys who LOVE to drive, I see it in their eyes, they can't wait to hit the driver. Many start slow, but after a few drives they are smoking it and seem to gain confidence. The guy I played with was one of those, but with shotgun start, he only got to hit driver on 12, 15, 3, 7, 8 dogleg right, (shd have been 3W, through the fairway ) 9 and 11 (but did not need it.)

Watching him made me wonder how many really long hitters also have the mentality to lay back when needed, and then have their normal confidence when they really want to smoke a drive.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm surprised at how much long hitters think their only advantage comes in the form of what they can do off the tee.

Sure while its nice to hit those 290 yard bombs, I think they forget how much of an advantage it is to hit 4 iron from 210 yards out in the fairway or a Pitching wedge from 145 yards out in the rough.

If we're going to talk about which group is really taking it in the back side though, its the good putters. Not only do they make these belly putters and long putters to equalize the field, but they're also flattening out greens so anyone can putt on them.  How about the putters having an advantage on the greens with massive undulating greens and clubs that you can't jam into your gut??  huh huh?   

The crime of it all!!   

[Carl Rogers]

Carl

What do you mean by take the driver out of the hand?  For some that means the risk is too great to hit driver and for others it means a well struck driver on line will not only not be rewarded, but may well be dead.

Ciao

To me take the driver away means the following:
1. require an improbably accurate shot or else a water hazard or OB
2. a second shot that is either way too blind, super sidehill, uphill lie etc
3. such a bad angle for the approach shot that the shot is beyond the precision level of the big hitter
4. hit into something like the Road Bunker or the Pine Valley DA
5. combination of all of the above

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