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Rich_Goodale

Who wrote this?
« on: January 15, 2002, 12:37:56 PM »
Recently I have taken on the 3 Tom's advice and started to read again.  In this endavour I came across the following quote which intrigued me.  Could the future of golf be on brownfields rather than greenfields?  Just wondering.....

"The hand of man is the most sublime evidence of nature.  Only man could have had the wit to create those pits on the Old Course when he dug for shells or left his domesticated herds of sheep to find shelter on those cold winter nights.  Only he could have had the creativity to use and call those pits “bunkers,” as he developed that unique game of self-torture that he called “golf.”  It is understandable, then, that when he went to build new courses, he often did so on land which man had already graced with his touch, like the race course at Hoylake, or the airfield at Turnberry, or the old quarries at Merion and Dornoch.

In the future, the greatest courses will not be built on those rolling farmlands that our fathers loved, but on the industrial detritus of mankind—the strip mines of southern Indiana, the clear-cut wastelands of the Pacific Northwest, and the abandoned quarries of the deep South.  Not in places with names like Mamaroneck and Wheaton, but in places named Mandon, and Bullen and Gottdammerungberg.  The architects of these masterpieces will not be effete gentlemen with names such as McDillinghast, but real men with name like Sassio and Franz—or even just “The Boys.”  They will know that nothing is so raw and beautiful as that virgin land that man has taken for his own, used and then discarded to the Fates. So has it always been and so shall it be."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ed_Baker

Re: Who wrote this?
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2002, 01:04:12 PM »
HWW? or maybe Tommy Paul after a six green in regulation two under round! ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who wrote this?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2002, 01:09:26 PM »
Rich,
I don't know who said it but I do like the idea of building golf courses on the wastelands we have created. If nothing else it aligns us with those whose outlook has been one of using the whole carcass, not just the hide.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike_Cirba

Re: Who wrote this?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2002, 01:10:17 PM »
Jack Whitaker or Jim McKay practicing for telecasting the 2015 British Open, which will then known as the Guinness Conglomerate British Open, with painted, logo bottles in the middle of each green, on a brand new, non-links, resort course built outside Birmingham on a former industrial site, designed by a famous American architect for the reasonable sum of $75 million dollars featuring man-made, copy-cat versions of the "Best 18 British Open links holes" as determined by George Peper back in 1985?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who wrote this?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2002, 01:39:04 PM »
Brad Klein?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Who wrote this?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2002, 01:46:31 PM »
Dan Jenkins?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who wrote this?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2002, 02:16:50 PM »
Whitten?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich_Goodale

Re: Who wrote this?
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2002, 02:19:32 PM »
No winners yet, although at least one of you is (I think) on the right track....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Davenport

Re: Who wrote this?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2002, 02:31:39 PM »
Oh Doyen,
My guess is the inimitable Mr. Doak... Perhaps?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who wrote this?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2002, 02:53:19 PM »
We can logically conclude that the quote post dates Victoria National, since the "strip mine in Indiana" clearly references the course (deep south quarries may be a reference to Black Diamond).

He also references Merion, Chicago G.C., Winged Foot, among others, which is of no help.

The author also seems to have a sense of humor, apparent in his "McDillinghast" architectural nom de guerre.

I'm stumped. I would think it might be someone like Gary McCord, but I don't know the extent of his architectural knowledge such that he would know that Chicago GC is in Wheaton.

If it's not BarneyF, I'm stumped.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: Who wrote this?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2002, 03:12:37 PM »
Dobereiner?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: Who wrote this?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2002, 03:14:16 PM »
Stupid answer, he's dead :P
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who wrote this?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2002, 03:16:14 PM »
The bard of San Jose, Gich Roodale
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich_Goodale

Re: Who wrote this?
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2002, 03:33:55 PM »
I knew I could count on you, Hob Buntley!

I was planning to start a thread on the "Quarry School of Architecture" after looking at the Tobacco Road profile but then some dead architect started to channel through me and before I knew it I was pontificating with the best of them.

Sorry to anybody who wore out their dog-eared libraries in pursuit of the undiscoverable....

Anybody have any thoughts on the substance of what I was trying to say?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Who wrote this?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2002, 05:36:32 PM »
I have no idea. Please tell us!

When I first read it I thought this sounds like that A-hole Dan Jenkins who wouldn't know his architectural ass if he had both hands firmly planted on it. Many find Dan amusing and he does have a humorous way of stating things, but he rarely writes anything about golf architecure that amounts to more than a pile of Longhorn crap.

Rich
We've already conceded you are the smartest guy on this board by a long shot, but now we seem to be moving rapidly onto your superiority over every single dead golf architect, every dead golf architecural writer and perhaps every dead person all together. That might be going too far, I think you might humor other dead writers (what you make of the Bible, Koran or Kalki) -- only discrimating against dead golf architectial types and those ill educated goofs who find interest in them. You know for a while there I thought the subject of golf architecture was interesting, but stupid me, I was evidently looking at it in a very archaic and obsolete manner. Now I come to find that my interest was nothing more than twaddle and Rich Goodale is blazing a path to true understanding. Thank you! (the amazing thing is I didn't even think you found the subject interesting - having a more or less a very casual interest in the subject, preferring to share your golf experiences and your great devotion to Dornoch - boy was I wrong!)

For those of you who are interested in the conventional aspects of classic golf architecure and what many of the so-called greats, past and present, had to write and say about the subject -- I take personal responsiblility for Rich's barrage on a subject you enjoy. It was only after I wrote what I thought was a pretty thoughtful, well researched and original essay called 'Arts and Crafts Golf' that Rich seemed to go off the deep end. It evidently struck a nerve (for some odd reason), sparking a subtle and sometimes not so subtle campaign in opposition to the theories it aspoused and against past golf architecure in general. Which is fine, like any theory, its only my educated guess - its not like its going to change the world or turn me into the pied piper golf architecture or the foremost golf architectural sage (Rich already has that sewn up and we're all playing for second, he actually might have both first and second spots and one smart guy is meerly looking to show). What is a little disturbing is the manner in which Rich denegrades those who find the past interesting - no need for that.  Rich if you need to denegrade, denegrade me, not the past and those innocent bystanders who find the past interesting, even if you don't.

Funny thing, when it was first put up on this board I didn't hear a peep out of Rich or anyone else who didn't agree with it (maybe people didn't want to hurt my feelings -- then again maybe not) - which made me wonder what was wrong with it, surely there are some who think it is a load of crap.

Again for those who enjoy classic golf architecure and classic golf architecural theory - I apologize.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB2

Re: Who wrote this?
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2002, 06:36:25 PM »
This is a really good point. Say what you will about Old Works in Montana (i've never seen it), but the concept is terrific and I believe that since it was a superfund site, the EPA even kicked in funding. This could really produce a good wave of muni courses that serve more than the golfing interest of the public.

If my memory serves me correctly, i think Eric Bergstol (the same developer of Twisted Dune), is producing a course on landfill in Bayonne, 15 miles from midtown Manhattan. Perhaps Matt Ward can shed some light on this, but this really has the potential to contribute in a number of ways, first, it will add another public venue to an underserved market, second, a golf course has to be viewed as a far preferable alternative to a a landfill that would sit dormant.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Sweeney

Re: Who wrote this?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2002, 06:40:33 PM »
Website for Bayonne Golf Club

http://www.empiregolfusa.com/bayonne/
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Who wrote this?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2002, 07:43:30 PM »
"Let me take you down, cause I'm going to
Elysian Fields,
Nothing is real, and nothing to get hung about,
Elysian Fields, forever"

"Living is easy with eyes closed,
misunderstanding all you see,
it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out,
It doesn't matter much to me"

"Always, no, sometimes think it's me,
but you know I know and it's a dream,
I think I know of thee, ah yes, but it's all wrong,
That is I think I disagree"

with apologies to John Lennon

Rich,

You know I love debating with you, and I agree that it's a good idea to build golf courses on dumps, but Lord knows you can stretch a point, quite unnaturally, I might add.  



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich_Goodale

Re: Who wrote this?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2002, 10:14:13 PM »
Mike

Yes I probably did get a bit carried away with myself in the original post.  I was partly trying to have a little fun, but also partly trying to bring up the issue of naturalness and man's part in it in a different way.  I thought that Tom Doak's anecdote about the (probably) man made mound that he incorporated into one of his favorite holes made a very good point--good architects use the features that work for them, whether they be the result of geological, meteorological or human processes.

PS--good if disturingly prescient bit on the "Guinness Open."  We've already got the "Johnny Walker Ryder Cup" (in the UK).  Your scenario may not be far behind, alas...

Tom MacWood

Your work tieing GCA to the Arts and Crafts movement is very well written and well researched and is, I am sure, of great value to many if not most on this site.  From my reading it is a very well-argued hyopthesis about precursors and theories of many "golden age" designers.  It is not gospel.  My point of view, in fact, is that there is no such thing, at least in the relatively trivial area of golf course design.  I also am far more interested in what is on the ground now and might be in the future than what was once so in the past.  As a sage once said:  "Those who learn only the lessons of history are doomed to never be able to create the history of the future."  This is all I have tried to argue, from time to time, and should in no way be taken by you or anybody else as an attempt to denigrate you or your work.  You are very much entitled to your point of view and your willingness and ability to articulate it is one of hte assets of this site.

As for me, I'm only smart enough to understand the depth and breadth of my ignorance, in regards to GCA and everything else about this wonderful mystery we call life.  I spend time on this DG because I learn from it.  Every day.  And, I love golf and its architecture, in my own way, as much as you or anybody else on this site.

I'm sorry this simple message has not been coming through more clearly to you.

Cheers

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Who wrote this?
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2002, 01:23:11 AM »
Wow! That's great stuff! I'm still thinking on it's ultimate meaning though, but I'm down to a couple of thoughts!

1/ This shows the true fallacy of "Manifest Destiny".

2/ What goes around, comes around!

3/ A little knowledge is a very frightening thing!

Rich, I don't know what led you astray here, but putting with the CLAW may be a likely candidate! At this point, I really don't know whether to advise you to keep reading, or just take two weeks off and then quit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »