Scottish Irish English Welsh GCA Input

[Slag_Bandoon]

  With these four cultures being the nest of gowf,  and all with historical reputations as bards and raconteurs, why are there so few that dive into these topics with their experiences and wisdom?  Is it a cultural thing?  Or is thinking/discussing golf architecture in these places like pondering the secrets of breathing?  Austrailia chimes in, Canada posts,  both with obvious and justifiable pride in their venues and histories.  Everybody loves the courses these people have, we dream of playing them; spend thousands to get there;  sacrifice marriages for the chance.  The secret is out of what they have and we're gonna come regardless of how quiet they are.   So, EuroLurkers.  What's the skinny?   I am no tactful diplomat and my intention is only to welcome you here.

  Slag from Oregon (That rainy territory above California - where our sewage drains to)
      

[Rich_Goodale]

Salg

Thank god that due to natural topographical features (as documented by the great architect and poet MacGonigal) your Oregonian sewage piles up in the very far north of our state, or Jeffersonia as the local libertarians like to call it.  To your question, these British guys don't get on the web often because in those socialist paradises, the local telephone company monopolies charge roughly a dollar for the download of any GCA web page ($10-20 if Tom Paul has chimed in).  They laugh when Ran begs for contributions.....

[Brian Phillips]

I am english....

However the main reason probably is that most of the topics on this site is comparison to American courses that nearly all normal British golfers have not played or visited.

To make an example...when Pat Mucci is making an arguement it almost always comes back to NGLA and how it's the best freaking course in the world...

or

Tommy going on about Tom Fazio that no one in Europe really cares about because he is not doing any designs (or destruction as Tommy would call it.. ) here!!

I have spoken to a few architects in Britain and a few just cannot be bothered with the aggro that some of the agggresive members of this site give out...

Some think it to be just a site where people talk about how many courses they have played...

IMH english O

[Tim_Weiman]

Brian Phillips:

Interesting comments.  What can we Americans do to encourage more European participation?

FYI, I agree on the Fazio bit.  It seems like most Europeans have barely heard of the guy.  By contrast, my European friends have heard of NGLA and those that have played it think its pretty special.

[Tim_Weiman]

Slag,

I would second Rich Goodale's comments.  I may be a couple years behind, but I don't think many Europeans enjoy the same kind of unlimited Internet access we do.  That probably influences behavior somewhat.  On the other hand, while working in London and Paris I found Europeans much more into the use of cell phones than we Americans are.  Sometimes it gets pretty bizarre, at least compared to what I'm used to here.  For example, I found myself in conference room meetings with 20people and 3 or 4 would be in private  conversations on their cell phone.  The person hosting the meeting didn't seem to mind.

Also, I wonder if there is another cultural factor at work.  My experience working with Europeans was that they would much prefer privately talking about matters that might be controversial.  Writing emails just didn't seem to be their thing.

[Brian Phillips]

Tim,

I totally disagree about the internet in Europe.  My company has over 4000 employees and all have free internet access during the day ( I have a digital line open all day) and we were also offered free use of computers at home in 1998.  In 2000 we were offered to buy the home computer for $100.

I think there are more computers per household in Norway than nearly any other country or something like that.  The problem with many architects in Britain is that they are old guard that maybe only use the internet for e-mails and not much else.

Have a look at this website www.gauntandmarnoch.co.uk

or at Graeme Webster's site

www.teamniblick.com

I know that Graeme doesn't surf but he definately uses the internet especially when he is staying home with us here in Norway.

[Tim_Weiman]

Brian,

You'll note I wondered if my perceptions about Internet cost and use in Europe were a few years out of date.  It sounds like that should not be a factor preventing more European participation at GCA of both industry and non industry folks.

Now we just need to figure out how to get more people on your side of the pond to climb on board the treehouse.

[Brian Phillips]

Tim,

Are you an American based in the east or Australia?  Or have you just got in from a nighclub in New York?

I don't know how to get it going..

I am going over to England in two weeks time for the Turf conference, maybe I will mention it there.  I do know that there are some students from Heriott-Watt studying GCA that lurk here..

[Dickie Wrist]

I used to enjoy and read the site a lot more than I do now because, as an earlier poster said, the site has become more and more US centric.  The site seemed to start getting more exposure about a year ago in the US and a whole new load of American GCAers arrived (which is a good thing).  I think I raised that in the past, and the answer back was 'raise some issues then'.

I take the point, but it's not enjoyable reading through reams of posts on places you haven't played, just to continue discussing the few classic British courses you have.  I have interacted a bit with Rich who has a good knowledge of courses in the UK in general (rather than just the classics, which from Loughborough home are not that accessible for anymore than once or twice a year).

On the positive side I have played a fair number of courses that I have read about here first (Apache stronghold, Talking Stick, Riverdale Dunes, Fort Ord etc.).  I would not have tracked these places down without this site.  I tend to use it more as a travel reference than anything.

I wouldn't have thought that the cost of Internet access is a real reason for people not contributing, it's not that expensive.  However, actual access to the internet (i.e. availability and exposure to the internet) may be.

Dickie

[Tim_Weiman]

Dickey Wrist:

My comments on Internet usage and cost were just speculation.  I do think Europe and the States have adopted different communications technologies at slightly different rates.  Look back say five years and I think you will see more widespread use of cell phones in Europe than in the States.  The picture with Internet usage was just the reverse.  But, as you would expect, there has been convergence and the differences with both technologies are much smaller today than was true only a few years ago.

Anyway, GCA does face a challenge being truly global because in reality very few people are able to discuss golf architecture worldwide.  For example, my golf architecture education is limited to the US, Canada, Ireland, Scotland and England.  I haven't seen Australia or anything in Continental Europe.  But, I'm guessing most people will have similiar gaps.

Maybe that means we will always be limited to discussing the very best of what each region has to offer.  That's usually all that overseas visitors have time for.  Or people can always  skip threads they can't relate to and instead create their own that may be interesting mostly to people in their own region.

[Slag_Bandoon]

In my endless quest to understand trivialities, I went to ...

  http://www.uk-golfguide.com/scottish_forum.html

 I checked their main uk-golfguide 'stats' page and they average 40,000 + visits a month. That's pretty good coverage but their Forum is rarely used and a large percentage are Yankee posters.  Not sure what my point is. Maybe there isn't one but I think where it fails is that their forum has no real guidance or theme. Ran, you've definitely got something vibrant and vital here.  Of course, you've got a terrific supporting cast; though nefarious they may be.