A golf fantasy

[Jon Wiggett]

My course will be fully reversible from May next year. I am in the process of constructing the last tees to make this possible. I will be making a posting on it including course tour in both directions shortly,

Jon

[Tom_Doak]

Jon:

Will the course be just as good backwards as forwards?

To me, that's the standard you need to achieve if you want to go out and build a reversible course.  And the hard part is, to achieve that you will have to make some design decisions in favor of the backward course over the forward course ... in other words, you have to sacrifice a bit of the quality of the "normal" course for the greater good.

[Jon Wiggett]

Tom,

the proof of this will be in the playing of the course. I believe that the course will be just as enjoyable played in either direction but it goes without saying that some players will have a preference one way or the other. You are correct that some sacrifices have to be made for the good of the whole but this is true on standard courses where some opportunities for good/great holes are sacrificed for the good of the whole course. The secret might be not to have a normal course but rather two equal ones.

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I"ve been thinking about your reversible golf course all day.

If the developer was trying to develop a private course, I can understand his reluctance, but, if he was trying to develop a publc facility, I think he missed the opportunity of a lifetime.

A reversible course would in effect, provide two courses in one, which has to be attractive to the public/retail golfer.

For the same green fee, you get to return to the same location and play a different golf course.
You double the variety for no additional cost.

If I was developing a public facility, and the routing and hole design, both ways, presented an enjoyable challenge, I can't think of a reason NOT to do it.

If you didn't use double greens, I would imagine that the maintainance budget was increased a good deal.

Did you use double tees or the same tees ?

How many bunkers did the course have, greenside ?  Fairway ?

What did you estimate the annual maintainance budget to be.

What area of the country.

I think it's a brilliant idea for a public facility.

[Mark Saltzman]

FYI, this course claims to be the nation's "first and only reversible course."  Based on what I saw when I was there, they have given up on the reversible aspect of the course and are not doing well.

http://www.tetonreserve.com/golfcourse.html

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak,

I"ve been thinking about your reversible golf course all day.

If the developer was trying to develop a private course, I can understand his reluctance, but, if he was trying to develop a publc facility, I think he missed the opportunity of a lifetime.

A reversible course would in effect, provide two courses in one, which has to be attractive to the public/retail golfer.

For the same green fee, you get to return to the same location and play a different golf course.
You double the variety for no additional cost.

If I was developing a public facility, and the routing and hole design, both ways, presented an enjoyable challenge, I can't think of a reason NOT to do it.

If you didn't use double greens, I would imagine that the maintainance budget was increased a good deal.

Did you use double tees or the same tees ?

How many bunkers did the course have, greenside ?  Fairway ?

What did you estimate the annual maintainance budget to be.

What area of the country.

I think it's a brilliant idea for a public facility.

Patrick:

I misunderstood your question about "double greens", I guess.  I thought you meant having 9-10 huge greens for 18 holes, a la St. Andrews.  The course I planned had 18 greens that you could play to from two different directions.  You could use a lot of the same tees, but sometimes it's better to have "tees" in the approach area that serve as forward tees when you're playing it backwards.

In general, the only addition to a normal maintenance budget would be the necessity of having some short grass all the way around the greens and off the back ... to allow for running approach shots when playing the course in the opposite direction.  For that reason, is much more practical idea on bermuda, fescue, or paspalum fairways than on bentgrass.


Mark:

There have been a handful of other reversible courses in the U.S.  I know there was a reversible course at DeBordieu in Myrtle Beach prior to the present course, and I believe Joel Goldstrand built one in Minnesota, as well.  None of them have caught people's attention so far, but that only adds to the challenge.

[Mike_Young]

Don,
I think some architects might have done this before.  I know in the past I have made a deal with a devloper where I would own the course and part of the lot sales if he put up the land and a sum of money.  I would put in the rest and operate the finished product or sell it.  I have done it twice and sold it twice.  The entire design phase was up to me once we had a routing determined.  I have done courses where we would take most of our fees in lots up front and sell them as we went.  Presently we have purchased one and will focus on operating it on an almost fulltime basis.  I know of another architect that has done the same thing in my area.  Reality says one must do this because otherwise there will not be that much to do. 

I think one of the biggest myths in golf design is the "fee".  Each deal is different.  When some guy says JN gets a set fee I say BS.  I have made deals for a $25000 design fee and I got to build it as I wanted at a "not to exceed" fee.  It works fine but some of the "holier than thou "professional" architects" will say that is a bad thing.  I have done a course where the developer had us design and build the course knowing they were going to sell it for a specific number and our compensation was a split of the profit. 

I think the only difference most of us would make in the scenario above and what you describe is the reality of the maintenance cost.  I knew that in order to sell what I had it had to make sense and be able to profit.  So my fantasy would be the opportunity to find the right piece of land just like finding the right piece of marble for a statue or the right piece of wood for a carving.  AND the fantasy of having that right piece of land in a populated area.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Was it for private or public play ?

What were the developers main objections ?