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Noel Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Last year I know Geoff did his due diligence in visiting the Kent coastline in prep for this year's Open.  I wasnt surprised when I heard that he thought Deal was the best course not on the rota (even though it was until 1949).

In this week's Golf World Geoff has penned a story "Getting real about Deal" which argues that Royal Cinque Ports should be back on the Rota.  Something that has been discussed for many years and Mark Chaplin here would know the most about.  I'd like to see the Walker Cup or Ladies Open (with a tip of the cap to Karen Stupples who grew up at Deal) first but I do think returning ala Hoylake would be good for all parties involved.  Deal certainly has the ability vis a vis the length that can be added and besides, it has in my opinion the best greens of several of the Open courses I've seen-- I will get to compare to Hoylake shortly.

Some of the highlights:

"Set against the northern edge of a charming seaside resort town and only 3 miles from St. George's, RCP initially hosted JH Taylor's 1909 win.  Eleven years later, the English links saw George Duncan open with 80/80 only to buy a new driver in the Championship Exhibition tent and post rounds of 72-71 for a 13 stroke come from behind victory.  Opens slated for Cinque Ports in 1938 and 1949 however were moved to Sandwich after the North Sea overtook Deal and washed away hopes of future championships.  A seawall to protect both the links and the town were constructed in 1981 to prevent further calamity but the R&A has only returned to Deal for the 1982 British Amateur.  Although the reasons for staying away are understandable, Cinque Ports has quietly addressed some of the R&A concerns while looking more appealing as an array of factors make returning to other venues less attractive.  Architectually, Cinque Ports has FEW EQUALS (my emphasis).  Just dont tell that to the panelists who inexplicably ranked it a middling 32nd in Golf Digest's recent listing of the top 50 UK links.

"Unlike nearby Prince's Deal was carefully put back and touched up by Guy Campbell after the links incurred damage during WW II. Since then only new tees have been added to keep a few key drives relevant and although the scorecard yardage appears short there is room for more distance even though Cinque Ports plenty of challenge without taking driver out of a player's repertoire.   Critics do not find it visually pretty enough and many others despise the imbalance of the nines.  As with Troon and to some extent Lytham and St. Annes Deal's 7006 yards open with a short front nine which often plays downwind.  That is followed by a borderlin cruel incoming 3667 yard stretch with the final holes facing a southwest wind."

"The imbalance receives more attention than it deserves.  Indeed, as with Sandwich the layout is interspersed with several of the very best holes in links golf, beginning with the par 5 third where the green is sunken between the last of the several wave like fairway ridges.  the marvelous drive and pitch sixth's terrifying skyline green would be an Open favorite, and the gull-winged 12t green livens up otherwise flat terrain.  Discussion of the memorable 14th thru 18th hole stretch ultimately centers around the sllightly elevated 16th green complex guarded by what Bernard Darwin labeled the "valley of inglorious security".

"Cinque Ports has a loyal following with a few American architecture afficionados"

Geoff quotes Darwin--" But as Bernard Darwin wrote of the course that rivalled his beloved Sandwich, deal offers the 'same kind of country, the same, or very nearly the same kind of turf, and yet the general impression is quite different"

"Perhaps the best selling point of all is the course's connection to the town of Deal.  A golf mecca in the vein of St. Andrews it certainly is not but Deal is equally as charming as a seaside village.  Golf Road leads up to and past the clubhouse bisecting the 1st tee and 18th hole from the building, yet connecting the village with this jewel of a links."

Geoff goes on to quote David Hill who is the point man on infrastructure and what Deal doesnt have-- Hill says Deal needs room for a tented village but as I and other member can attest to, there is farmland that can be rented out that I think would accomodate that.  Geoff also talks about Deal the town which is much bigger and better suited to hold an Open crowd--in fact many will be at Deal this week for lodging and food.  There is also the issue of Capital and who would invest in Deal getting the Open, the rail station would need to be improved etc-- The Seawall could be a great viewing platform which Geoff touches upon, since the course is so narrow there is little room in the middle for viewing.

Fyi as some know--Deal will host the 2013 Amateur and for an Open Geoff discusses making the 1st hole the 18th hole.  Also a tee could go back in my estimation another 80-100 yards on #1 which would make a front pin placement and the burn a tricky mid iron for the pros into the wind.

I dont understand the critique of Deal being not pretty. You get some great views of France and the cliffs at Ramsgate to the north along with the Richborough cooling towers which are oddly cool.. But you'd have to walk the course and take note of the features and do the due dilligence to see the beauty.  Geoff spent a full day out there with Deal's historian (my good friend and a true English Gentleman, Mr. David Dobby).

If you get your hands on Golf World, it is a good read and some great pix including an aerial of Deal and Sandwich.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Noel:

I know you love your club.  And the golf course has a great variety of holes.  Maybe you should invite me back to play there again someday.

I think the main reason Deal is not considered pretty is the obvious dyke between the course and the sea.  Was that always there?  It does make the views on #2 through #4 [a great stretch of holes] a lot less dramatic than they would otherwise be, and it also diminishes the views as you are coming home.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom,

The sea wall was formalised about 30 years ago, but members who pre-date it have told me that frontal dune was always that size in most parts and that the views of the sea were not much better before the sea wall than they are now.

Of course 6 had a brilliant skyline green that ran off onto the beach before the sea wall and now it has a slight rise behind it, though it's still a hell of a green. 7, 9 and 11 now have back tees on the sea wall, also.

Noel Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom-

Scott beat me to the punch but you have not seen the new seawall tees on 7 and 9 which alone with the one on #11 give you some great sea views down the coast as well as over the links.  The back 9 really gets going for just the view of the clubhouse as you come home down 16-18.  The course is not St.Enodoc for scenic splendour but a lot better than Troon, Lytham and perhaps Muirfield.   I will be down there next week post the Open and hopefully get some seawall tee shots as well as be able to compare Deal's Greens vs. Hoylake and which course is prettier.  Im assuming Deal will win that one as well.

I am a homer for the course no doubt.  Since RT and I went there over 10 years ago, I immediately began trying to become a member and I think I was let in the old fashion way with members having to write letters etc.  I know there were only a handful of foreign members at the time so I feel like I was an early guy as for rediscovering Deal even if I was way behind yourself and Jim Finegan.

I am tossing up having a TucoFest 2012, something I've wanted to do for years as many friends have still not see Deal.  Perhaps the Okie can read the greens for you if you come, he is truly the one who helped me find Deal.   Plus I'm sure you'd like to see where the old sandy parlour was with the green and bunkers..



Patrick_Mucci

Tom Doak,

A good friend of mine is a member.

If Noel doesn't invite you, I'll get him to extend an invitation  ;D

He leaves tomorrow for two weeks at St Georges.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think I'd rather be a member of Deal than any other club I've seen in England.  Great course, very friendly members, great old clubhouse, excellent staff.   It's a treat to be there. 

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Patrick,

One thing a man won't go without on this website is an invitation to Royal Cinque Ports. We are many and we are passionate.

If Tom does go back he can reconsider the 6 he gave it. ;D

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
The best part about Deal is the view of the sun setting over the white cliffs of Dover. ;) ;D
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Patrick,

One thing a man won't go without on this website is an invitation to Royal Cinque Ports. We are many and we are passionate.

If Tom does go back he can reconsider the 6 he gave it. ;D

My thoughts exactly.  No way Deal is a 6 today!  Personally, I prefer it to Sandwich.  It has a better set of green complexes (hard to believe considering Sandwich's greens are superb), better "best" holes than Sandwich, and it has the great short par four (6) that Sandwich lacks.

Can't wait to read the article.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Sev K-H Keil

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'd love to see the article and pictures --- does any happen to have it scanned in already? Golf World is not an easy find in NYC...

Thank you in advance!

Sev

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
 I use a simple "fun" qoutient. Deal was more fun than Sandwich. There was more interest and variety throughout the course. I don't pay attention to views.
AKA Mayday

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
If Tom does go back he can reconsider the 6 he gave it. ;D
But then he'd have to go back to Silloth, too......
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Just back from an overnight in Deal, didn't pop over to Sandwich as I've two days there during the Open.

There is a buzz around RCP at the moment, several top players have visited recently including two Open champions playing this week. Private visits, no fuss, no crowds yet a similar experience to RStG in respect of bounce, green speed, etc. could be a wise way of practising for the tournament proper.

Spoke with a couple of the favourites last night and they thought Sandwich more playable than 2003 with the fairways widened in places and it's fairly soft. Their "soft" and being able to stop a ball is different to ours!

« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 07:51:54 AM by Mark Chaplin »
Cave Nil Vino

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
I thought there were more views at Deal than at Sandwich, anyway.  Holes 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, and 11 all have clear views of the English Channel.  I only remember seeing the Channel on 4 or 5 holes at Sandwich.

As for Deal in the Open: the golf course is definitely tough enough to host well.  Look at the scores in the recent Open qualifier, which were generally very high and definitely caught some folks' attention. Yes, the front nine is shorter, but it does not always play downwind.  The front also has the greatest potential for added length, especially on holes like 2 (that can go well over 400 yards), 3 (570), and 5 (could probably go to 570, or the R&A could leave it at 520 and make it a 4). The new seawall tees, especially on 7, are downright fearsome.  As I always say about Deal, its green complexes are what make it so tough.  A green complex like the 6th would wreak havoc on pros, who tend have little imagination when approaching those types of greens.  Of course, the inward stretch is phenomenal, and the club would simply make the 1st hole the 18th to accommodate grandstands.

Gallery space? Hell, they make it work at St. Andrews.  The area behind the second hole is wide open and begging for corporate tents.  Rent a farm field for a car park.  And yes, a high speed rail will only take 1.5 hours from London if it goes direct to Deal.  The Deal train station is small, but it has plenty of parking area around the station to accommodate shuttle buses.  The logistics aren't perfect, but I can't imagine they are better for other venues (including Sandwich).  And yes, Deal has the world's largest grandstand in the seawall.

Deal needs to be considered for the Rota once again.  I am not one to support ruining a golf course just hold an Open, but I think what's there now at Deal could be ideal for golf's oldest championship.

One side note about Shackelford's article: the loss of the Sandy Parlour was due to one major factor: caddies were known to scramble over the hill before the players and place tee shots in the hole to gain a better tip.  After an overabundance of holes-in-one on that hole, the club decided the hole needed a change.  The current hole, as has been discussed on this site, is a tremendous and highly unique short par three.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Noel Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
I have it scanned, if someone wants it please pm me without driving me crazy!  As to Deal, many here know my thoughts. I've been fortunate enough to see a lot of GB&I courses and I joined it for a reason which was I found not one that was a greater mix of fun and challenge.  Also, don't forget Deal has one of the best if not the best playing pros around--Andrew Reynolds who is a rarity, a man who has been at Deal I think north of 30 years and has played in Senior British Opens and done well.

I certainly think if the tiny town of Sandwich can hold the Open, Deal can. Dont forget Walmer is close to Deal and has 6k people and Deal itself is 30k people. You could bus people in from Dover if need be too.


There were many reasons for Sandy Parlour being abandoned, Tommy Naccarato and I wrote a piece for Neil Crafter's Golf Architecture Magazine Volume 9 about it.

Here is some text on the old Sandy Parlour from the piece Tommy and I wrote.. I've actually spent a lot of time around the area trying to figure out where everything is.. It is not easy as the fill JSF Morrison used to build the current hole was taken from the old greensite and surrounding area.

In Search of Sandy Parlour
Words: Noel Freeman
Illustrations: Thomas Naccarato, David Dobby
Photographs: Russell Talley
Research: David Dobby, Tom MacWood

Blindness is certainly a subject in golf that one can go blind arguing about-Max Behr

In golf as in life, there are feelings of pleasurable uncertainty at times.  A sense of mystery, love of the inexplicable and wonder grip the player.   Heroic and strategic golf holes can evoke great joy out of golfers, but for sheer drama and illumination the blind golf shot—more specifically the blind par three-- is unsurpassed.  Yet in the modern game the blind par three is a veritable dinosaur.  In our prevailing and increasingly Americanized pop culture, where instant gratification rules, golfers now require immediate feedback and visibility in shot making.  Any obstructed view or shot is an endangered species and clubs will spend whatever it takes to remove them.   It is all about fairness now in the modern game.  Yet, fairness looms too large in modern golf architecture; its zealots apply it until the game grows stale, shabby, old and just plain boring.  What have we lost?  The heroic or “sportsman’s” carry—a shot involving an inherent leap of faith and a dash of luck.

The blind par three still exists in several places.  The Dell Hole at Lahinch and Prestwick’s Himalayas being the most famous of those remaining.  Sadly, these holes once had two famous cousins in England—the Maiden (#6) at Sandwich and the ‘Sandy Parlour’ at Royal Cinque Ports (Deal).

“There stands the ‘Maiden’ steep, sandy and terrible, with her face scarred and seamed with black timbers, but alas! We no longer have to drive over her crown: we hardly do more than skirt the fringe of her garment.”  Bernard Darwin

Eloquently described by Darwin and sounds fun to play, does it not?   Unfortunately, the Maiden is no more as changes throughout the 20th century now make the green directly visible from the green.  The Maiden is but a footnote, a sandhill standing sentinel and regal but no longer challenged nor threatened.

A few miles south of Sandwich, is the crumpled landscape of Deal where the ‘Sandy Parlour’ offered the most sporting of blind par 3s.  Originally conceived in 1892, the ‘Sandy Parlour’ was possibly a design of Tom Dunn or Ramsey Hunter but constructed by Harry Hunter--Deal’s first greenskeeper and professional.  It is likely the final design of the original 4th is his.  At birth, ‘Sandy Parlour’ was full of richness and wonder in playing.  It contained all the challenge a golfer could ask for within its 150 yards.  With the lapping waves of the English Channel behind the golfer, the beachside tee was open to the wind at all quarters (usually the summer southwesterly--a hurting slice wind).  In front of the golfer lied a supreme challenge.  One hundred yards ahead was the spine of a tall sand dune with a marker post acting as a beacon to aim at.  In between tee and marker post was the ‘Sandy Parlour’ a mottled wasteland of sand, scrub and dune grasses.  It was a tremendous hazard for golfers at that time playing a guttie with any hope of recovery unlikely.  Yet, that was only half the battle.  If a ball could carry the sand dune, it was no guarantee of reaching Providence.  A shot had to pitch at just the right area on the backside of the dune in order to catch a left to right kick onto a fall-away green.  Wayward pitches would find two bunkers flanking right and one left.  A non-bunkered ball could be even worse finding broken ground lies with little hope of recovery.    The preferred shot required a member to learn a high dropper and after repeated attempts, the golfer would learn the charms and whims of the approach.

What the Golfing world thought of the ‘Sandy Parlour’

Horace Hutchinson

The fourth hole of 158 yards is known as Sandy Parlour, and is a reproduction on a smaller scale of the celebrated Maiden at Sandwich.  It is a very pretty hole, and, except against a strong wind, a cleek shot should land you on the green; but a provoking pot to the left catches many an apparently well-hit ball, so the hole must be played with care and precision if it is to be achieved in three. (1897 British Golf Links)

Bernard Darwin-

The fourth hole, ‘The Sandy Parlour,’ has for some years a great name, but like some other blind holes has come to live on its reputation.  The shot is a blind one over a big sandy bluff.

The once famous short holes are meeting with the same fate all over the country.  The ‘Maiden,” long since shorn of much of its glory, is undergoing another metamorphosis, and it is even rumoured that some day it will be a blind hole no longer.  The ‘Sandy Parlour’ has even been threatened,  and indeed it may be laid down that if the golfers of a dozen years ago praised a hole as being ‘sporting’ that hole will be the first marked down for the reformer’s attack.  It is all very splendid no doubt, but is it is also just a little bit sad. (1910)


Whither the ‘Sandy Parlour’

Bernard Darwin’s quote about the ‘Sandy Parlour’ was prescient indeed.  By 1937, the ‘Sandy Parlour’ no longer existed--dying a death at age 46.   A post mortem examination reveals no direct reason for the culling of the hole.  Several factors, however, are evident.

•   An excessive number of holes-in-one.  Caddies trying to earn the traditional sovereign tip for an ace would often move shots near the hole into the cup.  Deal members grew tired of the practice.

•   Safety concerns.  While bells and even periscopes were used in the early 20th century to protect golfers from errant shots on blind holes it is likely clubs would look at removing blind shots in order for personal safety and protection of members/guests.  


•   Back to back blind shots.  The 3rd hole at Deal features a blind approach over Lang’s Neck to a punchbowl green.  Combined with the shot over the ‘Sandy Parlour’ at the 4th, members may have tired of duplicate blind approaches.

•   Criticism from well-known architects and fairness minded professionals.  Herbert Fowler in previewing the 1909 Open had this to say about the hole.

“The Fourth Hole is called the ‘Sandy Parlour’.  It is an absolutely blind hole over a very large sand bunker and a ridge of sand covered with rough, benty grass.  The green is a good one, but value of the hole is quite spoilt owing to its being blind.  May 29, 1909 Country Life

One may speculate to Fowler’s quote motivation—he may have been looking for redesign work, as this was common in the era so his comment could be genuine critique or an invitation to offer his design services.  Regardless, it marks the beginning of a reformation movement toward fairness and visibility.  



Changes to the ‘Sandy Parlour’

In 1926,  Harry Colt’s assistant, J.S.F. Morrison began the first changes to ‘Sandy Parlour’.   Morrison reformed the hole by shaving the right side of the dune enough to give the golfer a visible view of the flagstick.  The effect of this was simple—the emasculation of the sporty nature of the hole.  Visibility removed the fear of the unknown for the golfer and it was just a matter of time until the final solution of obsolescence.  Morrison returned in 1937 in order to prepare the course for the 1938 Open Championship.  In doing so, Morrison relocated the green adjacent to the ‘Sandy Parlour’ (on the other side of the dune) making it entirely visible from the tee.

The current green complex is brilliant, a domed, bunker-less affair which is shy of 3,000 square feet.  It is wider than it is deep and despite only being 150 yards will only accept a superior shot owing to its crowned nature.  Being predominantly downwind, the shot value is moderately difficult despite wedge or 9-iron in hand.


« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 12:02:40 PM by NFreeman »

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