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Bill_McBride

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Jerry Pate Golf Design
« on: January 23, 2002, 06:47:40 PM »
Who has played Jerry Pate's designs?  What do you think of his courses?  He has designed Kiva Dunes and Steelwood in the Gulf Shores AL area, Dancing Rabbit and Old Waverly in Mississippi.  He's a member of Pensacola CC here; saw him in the grill after golf today and asked him what's he got going. Says he is designing new courses in NJ (1 hr south of NYC) and Scottsdale AZ.  I've only played Kiva Dunes and found it to be interesting use of slightly rolling sandy site. Greens complexes pretty good, large with distinct pin areas.  Anyone else have any opinions on a guy who is probably our most prolific southern designer these days?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jerry Pate Golf Design
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2002, 09:22:07 PM »
Huh?  Define "Southern".

I always tell people that Orlando is just south of The South.  You must be excluding Steve Smyers and Ron Garl.  I think both are based in Lakeland.

If not, then please define "prolific".

Mike Young can tell us how many Georgia-based architechts are as big as Pate.  Also, don't forget Arnold Palmer (Orlando-based?  I assume.) and Jack Nicklaus (Palm Beach area?).

Jerry Pate is almost invisible outside of L.A.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Davenport

Re: Jerry Pate Golf Design
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2002, 05:21:07 AM »
Bill,
I will speak to this Jerry Pate issue... My experience having played both Tiger Point East and West and Kiva Dunes was that Jerry Pate designs are very playable for all levels of golfers.  My opinion of Jerry Pate's design work is that he has a good sense of routing and what it takes to design/build a good product for the intended market.  I know the East course at Tiger Point recently re-opened after a complete renovation at the astronomical Pensacola price of $90/round (where a public round can be had for $30-$40 w/cart).  Unless they spent 4.5 million in the re-do they are price gouging!  Sorry to get off the subject...

During my most recent round at a Pate course (Tiger Point West in December), playing with my brother-in-law and my father-in-law, we all played from different tees to even the match. It was an enjoyable round.  The West course had good variety in its greens complexes offering some run-up approaches and others perched up requiring carry to the putting surface.  One complaint on that particular day was the excessively wet approaches.  I had several approach shots plug in the soggy turf two feet off the front of the putting surface.  I would characterize the bunkering as very typical for modern daily-fee golf courses.  This is not to say that they are not placed strategically, but I would condsider their placement as obvious.  

To speak of Kiva Dunes, which I played in the summer of 2000, I definitely enjoyed the round there.  Again I would characterize the design as typical resort/daily-fee.  Gulf Shores, Alabama is becoming quite the vacation/golf destination...  The hole corridors at Kiva Dunes are primarily straight and there are few pronounced dog-legs--only two that I recall.  Angles at Kiva Dunes are created with water features along the edges and tee alignment.  One hole, the par five Fifth, does have a waste bunker that bisects the fairway to create a go or lay-up decision for your second shot.  I have enjoyed the green contours of his putting surfaces.  He does provide some interesting rolls that separate cupping areas.  

Both of the Pate designs I have played are on relatively flat terrain.  I would be interested to see what his work looks like on land with more topographic change.  Some of the photos of Dancing Rabbit and some of his Fazio collaboration work appear to have more elevation.  It is good to hear that Jerry is doing work in the Northeast.  Unless his work is at the Jersey shore I will be anxious to see what he designs with more elevation.

Jerry Pate Golf Design can be considered a large player in NW Florida/AL/MS/LA region because of his roots in the deep South and the marketing value he brings to a project.  With the exception of a few courses, I'm not sure what he may have done beyond his stronghold in this area.
I believe he has co-design credits on a few courses with Tom Fazio.  These have been generally well-received.  I am curious to know how Jerry has been influenced by Tom Fazio or what he may have learned (good or bad) from this partnership. I'm interested to hear more from those who've played or seen his other courses.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BCrosby

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Re: Jerry Pate Golf Design
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2002, 05:36:39 AM »
I thought Bob Cupp was usually given credit for Old Waverly.  Was that a joint effort?

With Tom Fazio and Rees Jones around, I'm not sure Pate qualifies as the most prolific architect in the the South.  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Jerry Pate Golf Design
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2002, 09:04:59 AM »
I have played the Gulf Shores and Pensacola Pate courses. I found Steelewood the be head and shoulders the best. It is the only Pate course that I have played that gives one a total golf experience. The routing , the balance of shot making requirements, the general strength of the holes. They have a lot of strategic elements to them. It is a much better course than Kiva dunes or Tiger Point East.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Jerry Pate Golf Design
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2002, 09:05:54 AM »
Yes Orlando and Lakeland, much less Palm Beach are not even close to being in the south.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill McBride

Re: Jerry Pate Golf Design
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2002, 09:44:35 AM »
Way to back me up, John D.!!! EVERYBODY knows nothing south of say Perry FL is really in the south! ;D  I stick by Jerry as the most "southern" of designers.  He lives in Pensacola and he attended University of Alabama.  But Matt, I don't think he designed Tiger West's front nine, did he?  It doesn't have anything in common with the other 27 holes.  The soggy conditions are due to the agreement with Santa Rosa County to dispose of an ungodly amount of waste water effluent every day on that golf course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Davenport

Re: Jerry Pate Golf Design
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2002, 10:32:17 AM »
Bill,
Thanks for clearing up the wet approach mystery...  I was under the impression that both 18's at Tiger Point were attributable to Jerry Pate, after all didn't he have alot to do with the development?  I will certainly defer to you on this one!  I have played the East about five years back and I didn't care for it too much because I had a bad taste of hitting good shots into blind water features.  I'm curious if the renovations affected change on these dastardly hazards.  Bill, I would assume Jerry Pate did the redesign?  The East was scheduled to open the Monday (January 7th) following my departure.  From a glance the new work appeared nice and fluffy ;).  Maybe I'll start throwing my change in a jar to cover the greens fee for Tiger Point East on my next trip down.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill McBride

Re: Jerry Pate Golf Design
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2002, 12:45:52 PM »
Matt, I'm not sure about front nine at Tiger West, but it sure looks a lot different from back nine and all of East.  Anyway, Jerry did the redesign (really just a renovation of what was there, from what I hear) and his brother's construction company did the work.  IMHO they are going to have a tough time getting those kind of green fees from the tightwads around here.  $90 is way over the top for the Panhandle.  I know what you mean about blind water hazards, but it gets better on the East when you play it frequently.  #3 par 5 across the water, and #4 solid par 3 across the water to very shallow green are good holes.  #5 island green is a bit much.

By the way, I'm waiting for your mailing address and $$ for the check for those 1939 photos.  I'm showing them to the committee this weekend.  Thanks again.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jerry Pate Golf Design
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2002, 03:58:31 PM »
Played Kiva Dunes.

It's OK.
 ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

John_Conley

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Re: Jerry Pate Golf Design
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2002, 09:51:06 PM »
I've always felt that we are south of The South.  So why is it that some Panhandlers take offense to L.A.?

(Dude, you are giving Polk Co. way too much credit.  That's back in the South!)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »