A question about Merion and the U.S. Open

[JR Potts]

Again, the rough doesn't matter.  In the 2006 PGA at Medinah we had the rough up as high as you can get it.  It wasn't graduated...the problem was, nobody on the leaderboard hit the ball is said rough.  They hit 285 yard 3-Woods and then 220 yard 5 irons into the 500 yard par 4s.....and then made biride or par.

The guys at the bottow of the leaderboard were getting killed but the guys at the top couldn't give a crap about anything in their way.


I'm beggining to think that the only thing that can deter a pro, in his prime, is the moment.....not the course.

[Jim Franklin]

Why does a course have to defend par against the greatest golfers in the world when they are playing at there best?  


To determine who the best all around golfer is.
The U.S. Open has historically made that determination with PAR being a significant benchmark


What percentage of golfers can hit a 6 iron 214 yards or even 180 yards for that matter?

Probably all of them playing today

You don't think Rory was the best player this week? Or even best player in game right now?

[Tim Gavrich]

To what yardage will Merion play in the 2013 Open?  Just over 7,000 at par 70, right?

Pebble Beach played to 7,040 yards, par 71 last year.  No one was under par for the week.  Why exactly is Merion, at the same relative length, going to so definitely yield super-low scores unless the set up is over-the-top severe?

Looking at the last 15 years' winning scores at the U.S. Open and knowing what admittedly little (but more than nothing) about the courses, it seems to me that the courses with the toughest green complexes (the combination, specifically, of size and severity of contour) are the ones that defend par the best.  If this were all about how allegedly out-of-control the golf ball is, then the longest courses would much more uniformly be the toughest.  But that just doesn't seem to be the case.

By the way, the course the pros are playing this week, TPC River Highlands, is just over 6,800 yards.  Bubba Watson won last year's event at -14.  Why hasn't the out-of-control golf ball made it so -30 wins on a golf course of that length every year?

[Joe Bausch]

To what yardage will Merion play in the 2013 Open?  Just over 7,000 at par 70, right?

Correct.

[John_Conley]

Good posts! The obscene distances being reached by the equipment/ball combinations are rendering it more difficult for all but a handful of our classic, Major layouts to be presented in anything less than "vodoo" set-ups.

I just want to point out this is nothing new.  Go back and watch the 2000 PGA from Valhalla.  Tiger Woods was locked in a battle with Bob May, who is listed at 5'7" and 155 lbs on his Wikipedia page.

It was silly.  9 irons from 170 and stuff.  Drives well over 300 yards.  And it wasn't just one guy...it was both.

It does not seem like the distance issue has gotten any more pronounced over the last 5-7 years.  It makes sense if the average drive bumped up a few yards as the PGA Tour replaced guys like Fred Funk, Scott Simpson, and John Cook with younger and fitter players like Camilo Villegas, Anthony Kim, etc....

[Matthew Petersen]

Why does a course have to defend par against the greatest golfers in the world when they are playing at there best?  


To determine who the best all around golfer is.
The U.S. Open has historically made that determination with PAR being a significant benchmark


What percentage of golfers can hit a 6 iron 214 yards or even 180 yards for that matter?

Probably all of them playing today

Well, no.

Playing right before Rory hit 6-iron there, YE yang hit a 3-hybrid on that hole. Left it a whole foot away, while Rory knocked it to six inches.

Mickelson, who's renowned as one of the longest iron players in the game, found the water on Thursday ... and if I recall from the telecast he was hitting 4-iron.

You kind of have to throw stuff out the window when someone is playing the way Rory was. All adrenaline at that point, I'm sure.

[Steve Kline]

Good posts! The obscene distances being reached by the equipment/ball combinations are rendering it more difficult for all but a handful of our classic, Major layouts to be presented in anything less than "vodoo" set-ups.

It does not seem like the distance issue has gotten any more pronounced over the last 5-7 years.  It makes sense if the average drive bumped up a few yards as the PGA Tour replaced guys like Fred Funk, Scott Simpson, and John Cook with younger and fitter players like Camilo Villegas, Anthony Kim, etc....

Funk, Simpson, and Cook were replaced with David Toms, Zach Johnson, and Y.E. Yang. I watched every hole this weekend and Yang hit it the same distance I did if not shorter. His drives seemed to be going in the 260-270 range and he seemed to be hitting his 6 iron about 180. Of course he was a full 30-40 yards behind McIlroy on every club in the bag.

Was the disparity between players that large 40 years ago, 20 years ago?

The distance issue is an enormous problem. Even 560 yard par 5s are driver and a long iron for many players.

[Matthew Petersen]

Good posts! The obscene distances being reached by the equipment/ball combinations are rendering it more difficult for all but a handful of our classic, Major layouts to be presented in anything less than "vodoo" set-ups.

It does not seem like the distance issue has gotten any more pronounced over the last 5-7 years.  It makes sense if the average drive bumped up a few yards as the PGA Tour replaced guys like Fred Funk, Scott Simpson, and John Cook with younger and fitter players like Camilo Villegas, Anthony Kim, etc....

Funk, Simpson, and Cook were replaced with David Toms, Zach Johnson, and Y.E. Yang. I watched every hole this weekend and Yang hit it the same distance I did if not shorter. His drives seemed to be going in the 260-270 range and he seemed to be hitting his 6 iron about 180. Of course he was a full 30-40 yards behind McIlroy on every club in the bag.

Was the disparity between players that large 40 years ago, 20 years ago?

The distance issue is an enormous problem. Even 560 yard par 5s are driver and a long iron for many players.

Every time someone talked about the sixth hole (555-yard par 5 with water dead in front of the green) they talked about how it was pretty easily reachable for pretty much anyone in the field. I (clearly) never quite got over that, but I guess it's true.

[Jim Eder]

I think there is no doubt to me that the ball goes too far.  With that said one has to be next to a pro to see exactly how long they really are. And also, one has to know what lofts they are using. 2 degrees strong is a half of club. Drives really run out on many tour courses. Often times there isn't much mention of the wind, the topography of the shot, etc. And the heat definitely helps in hitting the ball a long way. There is no question there are some long players out there but I am not so sure they are as long as they appear on TV as I am not sure the correct or full info is always given to the viewer.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why does a course have to defend par against the greatest golfers in the world when they are playing at there best?  


To determine who the best all around golfer is.
The U.S. Open has historically made that determination with PAR being a significant benchmark


What percentage of golfers can hit a 6 iron 214 yards or even 180 yards for that matter?

Probably all of them playing today

Well, no.

Playing right before Rory hit 6-iron there, YE yang hit a 3-hybrid on that hole. Left it a whole foot away, while Rory knocked it to six inches.

Mickelson, who's renowned as one of the longest iron players in the game, found the water on Thursday ... and if I recall from the telecast he was hitting 4-iron.

Yes, but on Thursday it was playing longer than 214.

You kind of have to throw stuff out the window when someone is playing the way Rory was. All adrenaline at that point, I'm sure.

I wasn't talking about Rory, I was talking about other golfers.

[Kris Shreiner]

Tim Gavrich,

The main difference between Pebble and Merion is the generally cooler air and wind influence on the exposed nature of much of the routing at PB which leads to higher scores potentially.  Merion, unless it is a freakish week, will generally be warm and not have that pronounced a wind influence.

The Poa greens, when bumpy, also increase the difficulty in going low at PB... many pros go into deep whining mode and get frustrated at Pebble.

Potts,

The rough will matter. Merion's rough can get extremely dense and lush. The ball tends to really settle and nestle there when it gets super penal. Hercules can't just chunk it to a foot out of that stuff. I've caddied in many tour events watching the best in the world up close and personal and the real nasty rough has them ALL crying Uncle...even Tiger. Sure, they'll pull it off once it a while,  but don't kid yourself, harsh lies get them plenty!That rough at Congo was candy compared to what Merion will serve up.

Another factor that traditional U.S Opens have not had recently is firm fairways that call for real shaping and thought when hitting and landing your tee shots. When have you seen balls really kicking and bounding directly into rough areas...not often (Pebble, while firm, had very sparse rough and many areas were shaved).

Firm fairways used to be a big part of the examination...that's been absent of late. The weather and lack of undulation or sloping fairways at many of the venues is partially to blame, however here again the watering, pre-event, tends to the moist side. You can't dry it out once it's soft...it's all up to mother nature. Merion has a number of canted, undulating fairways that if firm will present problems to players, even hitting 3 woods and long irons/hybrids. The difficulty of staying in the fairway is far greater when firmness is present in the landing areas. That increases the chance of finding the beastly rough...which if ungraduated...will wreck havoc on any player.

Merion's test is all down to the moisture and weather...the turf condition and set-up being sound. If it's firm...it will be an epic week. If it's soft... the drama will be more subdued.

I'm hoping for some fire in the old girl that week wilth the Bob Marley ruff!

Cheers,
Kris

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kris,

If what you describe comes to fruition at Merion, will that cause the best golfers in the world to tee off with irons on the par 4's and 5's ?

And, is that the kind of golf you want to see played in the U.S. Open ?

[Jim Nugent]

Even if they tee off with irons, are they going to hit lots of wedges into the par 4s?  Short irons?  What about if they hit driver? 

[David_Elvins]

Patrick,

I don't think they would do it, but if they played 4, 9 and 17 all off the back tees (+240 yards), it would have an effect on the score. 

[Ted Kramer]

Patrick,

I'm simply saddened by the state of the game right now in terms of distances.
I'm a weekend hack, maybe out for 5 rounds a year at this point in my life (i used to play 70 rounds a year).
And there is no doubt that I hit the ball WAAAAAYYY too well off the tee considering the amount of time I spend playing/practicing.
The drivers are too big, the ball flies too straight, the game has simply changed.
While change isn't always a bad thing, I'm not at all in favor of a hack like me being able to hit his/her driver as well as I do.
I have never played nor seen Merion, but from the pictures I've seen and the descriptions I've read it is probably one of the VERY top courses on my "want to play list" . . . the fact that the game could have (even if only at the highest level)  "moved beyond" a course like Merion simply saddens me.

-Ted

[Kris Shreiner]

Pat,

If Merion is firm that week, the players will really have toTHINK about how they play each hole. Those that can drive it long with decent accuracy will hit drivers where it makes sense. The wild things may risk it and might pay the price. The shorter knockers will have to be more accurate if they hit driver, or use the combination of shot-shaping and utilizing the terrain to gain more run-out distance to give them manageable distances for their second shots.

A variety of shots off tees should be the mix, giving the players the full examination...I believe Merion will deliver that if firm conditions are present. There should be a second cut, it just shouldn't be generous if we're talking an inland or parkland venue that will generally have minimal wind influence. That's my view, at least for our National Championship.

It should be noted that our U.S Opens staged near seaside locales, or those with sandy soil profiles like Pinehurst, offer the chance for different set-up presentations. I for one thought Pebble in 2010 was a great test. Folks cried about #14, but one just had to understand that your ball had to finish deep right on that hole or you risked taking a number. If you attempted to parachute it in tight and the ball spun too much, it could leave the surface and the fun began! The players that contended that week generally understood that and played the hole well. The best players, those who are on their game that week, find a way.

I will say that #14 would benefit from slightly enlarging the perimeter on the back half of the green. There is room to do it and that would add pinnable locations while not cheapening the shot values one iota. The steep slope on the right, front-half portion of the green could also be softened. The right bunker sand that has showered that part of the green for decades has gradually built up and increased the severity of the pitch there and when the green is really firm, you can't pin a thing on that side as most shots won't hold, spin back and silliness ensues as the 4 and 5 putts can result.

# 17, coming at it from north of 220 yards, was a bit much. That hole is plenty tough from 200 and change, the extra yardage just makes it a ball buster, especially to the back left pin with has very little landing area to begin with after having to cover that huge bunker. The right side has plenty of apron and bailout right and if your going deep back at the tee-box...pin locations on that portion of the green at least give the players a decent opportunity.

Cheers,
Kris

[Matthew Rose]

Which holes have new tees, and how long are those holes now?

[JR Potts]

I will say that #14 would benefit from slightly enlarging the perimeter on the back half of the green. There is room to do it and that would add pinnable locations while not cheapening the shot values one iota. The steep slope on the right, front-half portion of the green could also be softened. The right bunker sand that has showered that part of the green for decades has gradually built up and increased the severity of the pitch there and when the green is really firm, you can't pin a thing on that side as most shots won't hold, spin back and silliness ensues as the 4 and 5 putts can result.

# 17, coming at it from north of 220 yards, was a bit much. That hole is plenty tough from 200 and change, the extra yardage just makes it a ball buster, especially to the back left pin with has very little landing area to begin with after having to cover that huge bunker. The right side has plenty of apron and bailout right and if your going deep back at the tee-box...pin locations on that portion of the green at least give the players a decent opportunity.

Cheers,
Kris

You mean #12?...not #14?

And #17....it's a great hole but like most US Open Park 3s, most will just rope three irons into the middle of the green and two putt for par.  The hole will play at 3.4 for the week and be the hardest hole on the course....but the leaders will have no problem with it.

[Sean Leary]

I will say that #14 would benefit from slightly enlarging the perimeter on the back half of the green. There is room to do it and that would add pinnable locations while not cheapening the shot values one iota. The steep slope on the right, front-half portion of the green could also be softened. The right bunker sand that has showered that part of the green for decades has gradually built up and increased the severity of the pitch there and when the green is really firm, you can't pin a thing on that side as most shots won't hold, spin back and silliness ensues as the 4 and 5 putts can result.

# 17, coming at it from north of 220 yards, was a bit much. That hole is plenty tough from 200 and change, the extra yardage just makes it a ball buster, especially to the back left pin with has very little landing area to begin with after having to cover that huge bunker. The right side has plenty of apron and bailout right and if your going deep back at the tee-box...pin locations on that portion of the green at least give the players a decent opportunity.

Cheers,
Kris

You mean #12?...not #14?

And #17....it's a great hole but like most US Open Park 3s, most will just rope three irons into the middle of the green and two putt for par.  The hole will play at 3.4 for the week and be the hardest hole on the course....but the leaders will have no problem with it.

I think he is talking about Pebble, not Merion..

[JR Potts]

Yep....I'm apparently an idiot.

Sorry, the title and my lazy reading confused me.

[Sean Leary]

Yep....I'm apparently an idiot.

Sorry, the title and my lazy reading confused me.

I read it the same way as you did at first and was confused as well.

[Kris Shreiner]

Sorry for the confusion men!