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George_Bahto

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Re: Is this a Bottle Hole
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2011, 11:39:24 AM »
Alex asked:

George,
Looking at the pictures posted about the Ross Bottle and others where it is a straight hole with no alternate fairway, would you consider the 3rd hole at Essex County CC a version of the bottle hole

I think it now has a bottleneck feature in the landing area because of the way Gil and I pinched in the landing zone bunkering, yes, but I would fall a bit short of calling it a Bottle hole. Many, many landing zones are pinched in and they are not Bottle holes.

The third at Essex County CC is a bit short and it needed something in both the landing area to make the player think and when we deepened the left green greenside bunker and pulled it further to the left, I think we made it a much better hole. That bail-out area left greenside works well, much better after we enlarged it
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
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George_Bahto

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Re: Is this a Bottle Hole
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2011, 11:54:18 AM »
David, close examination of the original blueprint (not the scorecard map) of the course showed the tee for the bottle hole being left of 7 green. Note the short yardage for the Bottle hole on that early scorecard. Also, I think I have it someplace that they moved the 8th green a bit but it is not detailed.

The original blueprint also indicated the original 12th tee being to the LEFT of 11 green.

A few tees were altered as play at National got heavier over the years and players began hitting into groups coming down from parallel fairway

Then Macdonald found golfers hitting beyond his original hazard placements so tees were added, greens moved (17 & 14 and possibly 8), lines of play altered, hazards were added, in order to overcome these longer hitters.


I was at National yesterday and Bill Salinetti and his crews have the place looking and playing great.

The fairway expansion and approach area right of the first green adds a great deal to the hole - and a new look from the fairway as the front, right , greenside bunker looks like it is now IN the approach. Very cool.

Also Bill has expanded the short-cropped areas around the right and rear and a bit to the left of the 9th green, adding more interest if you miss the green in those areas. These areas were rough before and now you might want to chip or putt on to the 9th green from those areas.

some minor, thoughtful tweaks besides

gb
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

J Cabarcos

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Re: Is this a Bottle Hole
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2011, 01:49:27 PM »
Like a prior poster, I do not wish sidetrack the CBM discussion, but this thread made me recall a par 5 hole in urban SoFla.  Its the 4th at International Links, a golf course adjacent to Miami Int'l Airport which was designed in the 1962 by Dick Wilson and Joe Lee, and redesigned in 1997 by Charles Mahannah.  It always been a intriguing hole, giving you options off the tee, but subsequently pinching you to a smaller landing area on the next shot. Always a memorable hole.  I would call it an elongated bottle hole.

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William_G

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Re: Is this a Bottle Hole
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2011, 02:00:35 PM »
#5 @ Bandon is becoming less bottle like as the gorse has been removed to the right and left of the neck of the bottle.

Thanks

pre-gorse removal

« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 02:15:24 PM by William Grieve »
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Bill_McBride

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Re: Is this a Bottle Hole
« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2011, 03:00:12 PM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on June 14, 2011, 11:09:36 AM
Bill McBride,

Kinloch's "bottle" hole looks pretty good.

Is there any elevation at the green ?

Patrick, I haven't played there yet - will in October in the Dixie Cup - so hopefully Lester George will see this and comment.

A close examination of the photo from the green end does make it appear to be elevated.  The parallel mowing lines around the green make it appear to fall off both sides.  There are also parallel lines across the front of the green, perpendicular to the line of play, that show the green sitting several feet above the end of the fairway.   Depending on length, it's a very nice looking hole.   I suspect it's a bit longer as the front is open for running approaches.

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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Is this a Bottle Hole
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2011, 04:28:20 PM »
BCrosby,

Here's a Google topo of the area. Emmet's Bottle hole would have been between (roughly) the green lines.

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Lester George

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Re: Is this a Bottle Hole
« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2011, 07:22:13 PM »
Bill,

Thanks for posting the 2nd at Kinloch.  I'll get this picture thing figured out one day.  Bad resolution really hurts the whole thing. 

Pat,

As Bill said, the left fairway is higer than the right.  It is level to slightly down (depending where you are on it to the green.  From the left you can literally hit a bump and run into the front to middle portion of the green as there is a completely flat transition from fair to green. 

From the right you obviously have a slightly uphill shot into the green over the the bunker.  Depth perception is a little tricky.  I I had sent a better phot you could see that there was little to no earth moved throughout most of the hole.  The landform set up so well for this that I actually decided to do the split after we cleared and I saw how good it was.  I suspected it was that good, but wanted to make sure. 

Lester
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DMoriarty

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Re: Is this a Bottle Hole New
« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2011, 09:20:25 PM »
Quote from: George_Bahto on June 14, 2011, 11:54:18 AM
David, close examination of the original blueprint (not the scorecard map) of the course showed the tee for the bottle hole being left of 7 green. Note the short yardage for the Bottle hole on that early scorecard. Also, I think I have it someplace that they moved the 8th green a bit but it is not detailed.

Thanks George.  I have seen a stick drawing from 1907 where the tee is well to the left, but the accompanying article reported that the 9th (then the 18th) would be the bottle hole, so I was wondering if that tee placement was before they decided to make the hole a bottle hole.  

And thanks for the update on what has been ongoing at the course.  When I was there years ago he was expanding he fairways and the close cut areas.  Nice to hear the progress continues.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 06:40:59 PM by DMoriarty »
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Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is this a Bottle Hole
« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2011, 04:33:31 PM »
Lester,

Thanks for the info, the hole looks pretty neat.

What are the carry distances for each set of mid-line bunkers.

George,

I'm scheduled to visit NGLA later this month and am always anxious to see what's in the works.

I still think that my suggestion for a tee left of # 12 green for # 13 and a tee back by the gate next to the 17th green for # 18 would be excellent additions, as would a back tee on # 7.

Since play for the Walker Cup will be very limited, has anyone suggested a back tee for # 12 back and to the left of # 11 green, making the carry over the diagonal bunker features a challenge (risk/reward)
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George_Bahto

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Re: Is this a Bottle Hole
« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2011, 05:56:51 PM »
Pat - the back tee for the 7th (Road hole) is already in the works - it is(will be) way back on the hill of 14-fairway

I think Bill told me about a new tee for 18 also
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is this a Bottle Hole
« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2011, 06:26:23 PM »
George,

I think those additions will be great in terms of bringing the intended architectural features back into play.

Don't tell TEPaul about the tees on # 7 and # 18 as his solution to the distance problem has been changing par from 5 to 4 on those holes, rather than moving the tees back.

This is why he has so much more to learn about GCA.

I think he liked replicating the approach shots on # 7 and # 11 at TOC at # 13 at NGLA.

Years ago I looked at the tee shot on # 12 from the left side of # 11 green.

I liked the diagonal hazard that the bunkers  presented.
Not that different from the diagonal hazard on # 8.
I'll look at it again when I next visit.

The one thing that seems to make sense with that tee configuration on # 12 is the long catch bunker at the right flank of the fairway, well into the DZ near the downslope.

As it is now, there's no heroic carry required of any tee shot.
From the left of # 11, almost every tee shot would require the decision as to whether to be heroic and get a huge reward, or conservative and be left with a most difficult approach.

I might even play a ball from that general area, south of the road triangle and parallel with the front of the green, provided noone's coming up # 7.  This is definitely a trial to be held after midnight ;D
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