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V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Part III - Siwanoy Country Club
« on: April 21, 2011, 03:41:26 PM »
The Experience of Siwanoy’s Design: Demands of the Greens

Measuring just over 25 yards in depth and 20 in width, and bisected by a 20" tier shelf, the 2nd green gives up very little.


Here I laid some graphic information over the same photo - the yellow 'spot' is the prime landing spot to keep things on the lower level:


These surfaces are among the most tiny, pitched and viciously contoured to be found anywhere in Golf. They possess so many hollows and knobby brows in such a small space that it is nearly mean. Only three (3) of them have a depth beyond thirty (30) paces and only six (6) have a width more than twenty (20) paces. Combined, this collection of greens could very well have the highest ratio of "interior contour to square footage" on any championship level course in the Ross canon and perhaps in the United States by any noted architect.  Though more credentialed Ross scholars than the author might dispute the claim, only Wannamoisett in Rhode Island seems to compare in this regard.

The 3rd green is a subtler, yet no less vexing, thing to play to than its predecessor back up the hill.  A Par 3 measuring between 185-210 yards you wouldn't think too much of it from this two-dimensional photo...


...until it could be enhanced with some graphic information.  Two dimensions just don't give great justice to these greens (or maybe it is my photography)


At 37D and 24W, the 4th green is the granddaddy of them all, about 20% beyond the next closest competitor, #8 green, followed by #10 in as “3rd biggest.”  The three smallest greens all belong to the three longest holes (excepting #4) - the Par 5s 18th and 5th, and the Par 4 15th -  each of which is less than 24 paces deep and less than 20 paces wide.

Wowzers, look at this little cub of a surface, the 5th green.  What lovely presentation, m'thinks.  Blind to the approach and barely 24 paces deep, there is a nosing promontory, creating a shelf, in the rear portion of this green - too subtle to be actually captured by a fool like me. 


Perhaps it is better seen in the lower photo, from behind this lovely end to the second of back to back Par 5s:





At everyday members' speed (usually between 9 and 10) Siwanoy's greens present the usual cautions and demands found on the well-regarded courses. At these more routine speeds the basic advantages a Siwanoy regular maintains over a visitor are his memory of just how slick this putt is as well as the repeated drill of chipping and pitching, for Siwanoy's green sizes defy hitting many greens in regulation.

These to views of the par 4 7th - from well right (top) and short left (bottom) - may give something of an indication of the thumbprint depression in the center of this green.  Owing to its pitch from back to front, nothing is secure on this hole until it is in the hole:


At tournament speeds (which usually range between 10.5 and 12 - and the author has seen over 13!!) greenside chips and putts, even those properly positioned, can be an absolute fright.  When the greens are pushed to this level, the imagination and touch needed to score (to say nothing of merely avoiding embarrassment) makes for anxiety at the result of almost every approach shot. In this case, the only advantage a Siwanoy regular "enjoys" is the knowledge of just how dead a particular miss may be. 

If the author were to editorialize a general rule for handling these challenges, it would look like this:

1. Never miss a Siwanoy green or long or left

2. Everything is a little faster and breaks a little more than you might realize.

3. Almost everything runs to the East if you’re trying to judge the direction and/or severity of the break

Though recent information has come to light regarding severe softening of the 5th green contours, what makes this intriguing to the student of design is that outside of the par 4 16th green complex, the author is unaware of any Siwanoy green site that has been substantively altered in the 98 years since they were originally constructed.  The 6th had been re-grassed twice in the 1990s but only minimal character was affected

Nothing could have more character than the signature 13th, a par 3 playing uphill, into prevailing winds where you find the vicious ramp of the green - here seen from front left and rear right.  Like #7 it too has a thumb print central swale but is 15% smaller and that much more vicious in its tilt back to the tee.


A 1976 club history makes passing mention that Robert Trent Jones work in the 1950s included the reshaping of greens. However, long-time caddie Nick DiSalva (who looped for 57 years at Siwanoy before his death in the 1990s) repudiated that assertion, stating to the author on several occasions that the green sites had not changed since his first year of caddying in 1937.  This further validates what aerial photography and other available research seem to support.

Though still invisible from the approach, this elevated green - the 16th - is one that has been changed, enough to warrant mention. In 1992-93, Arthur Hills lowered the left side of the green (viewer's right) and expanded the green surface out of the picture frame about 3-4 yards.  The author admits that the green was nearly unplayable at top speeds, so vicious was the slope from the foreground to this day's pin.  Still no bargain, but solvable, now.


Across Siwanoy's layout and most importantly its greens, you are playing a Donald Ross' design, almost as the Inaugural PGA field found it in 1916.  Well, perhaps it would be more tempered to add, “or as close as you’re going to get” as bunkers have been moved and changed in style, the contribution of Siwanoy’s first greens keeper Tom Winton is a legitimate point of contention and the Kay renovations changed two water hazards significantly (#12 and #16).

Next: Part IV - Course Tour


cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part III - Siwanoy Country Club
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2011, 03:52:49 PM »
and now the last two posts are together

part iv may not come until late next week

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part III - Siwanoy Country Club
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2011, 07:48:10 PM »
An expansive view of Siwanoy's shortest hole and its flattest green...the Par 3 6th.  Tricky winds and an intimidating tee vista make this hole play more fretfully than the card would suggest, as the penalty for missing the green is severe.  This is one of the select handful of aerial shots compelled by the Ross layout.



cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part III - Siwanoy Country Club
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2011, 10:36:11 AM »
Really enjoying your posts! THX!
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part III - Siwanoy Country Club
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2011, 11:03:39 AM »
Jeff,

thanks, unfortunately Part IV b may not get up until Wed night 4/27.

sorry

cheers

vj
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part III - Siwanoy Country Club
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2011, 07:45:42 PM »
just collecting the threads together

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Malcolm Mckinnon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part III - Siwanoy Country Club
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2011, 10:43:17 PM »
VK,

I posted this originally in the wrong thread. Here you can see the old steeple chase bunker on the third which is now gone.

Oh why, why??

The other post said in Siwanoy I-3....

Can it be?

What happened to the steeple chase mounds that used to reside between tee and green on number three? Though not in play I thought they lent an archaic look to the hole which I liked.

Drat!

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part III - Siwanoy Country Club
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2011, 10:48:41 PM »
MMK,

No problems, post in any thread you like...

The photo was from Oct 1995.   My memory may be failing, but I think it was gone by the end of the 1997 season.

Hey, look on the bright side, given the type of feature it is and photos such as this, it is one of the most easily replicated things, should the club choose to agree with those of who thought it was "neat " - which it was.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part III - Siwanoy Country Club
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2011, 10:46:35 PM »
just getting the post together as e make the turn

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part III - Siwanoy Country Club
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2013, 07:58:14 PM »
The front nine Tour and is buried right now on Pg 150 of the thread list, juts putting them back up top to blend more seemelssly with the back nine info I'm posting tonight.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -