Morphing into a thread on Cornell-RTJ Senior as Anakin versus Darth Vader

[Ronald Montesano]

http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/other/golf/golf-preview/article387108.ece

This course is loaded with water, but has a surprising amount of ground game availability. RTH2 built two highly-elevated greens on par three holes, one on each nine. The pace of the fairways, of course, is dependent on how much/little they are saturated with water.

It is also interesting that he admits that the 3rd fairway is a mistake and should be flatter.

Finally, and most important, he reveals that Cornell shows two faces of his father's work.  Here is the quote:

"If you play the back nine at Cornell, which is the original nine, you'll see the difference between my father's work in the '30s and his work in the '50s. The front nine, which is the second nine built, the bunkers are more bold. The bunkers are on the top of the ground. This is more classical style. The edging is more artful, kind of lacey or serrated."

I preferred the back nine, myself, when I played the course last summer.

[John Foley]

Ron - good work - thanks for the link

Definitely need to hit Cornell - been on the radar far too long.

I had a quick round last fall @ Hickory Stick - There a re a few really good holes out there - #17 was very good IMHO.

Hope to get around again this year.

How do you have it stack up against Ivy Ridge (which I like a lot)? To me it had a very similar feel.

[Ronald Montesano]

I believe that SHS has the superior routing. There are holes at Ivy Ridge that a truly professional architect would simply not build. I can elaborate if necessary. Ivy Ridge was saved from bland greens when it hired Blaine Harrison to shape them. SHS has holes that Ivy could have had, like the fortress par threes or the split-fairway par four. I think that the weakness at SHS comes early in the round (#3, specifically, where the green is not deep enough to hold a fairway metal from a player trying to reach it in two.) The rest of the course is solid, filled with deceptive angles that require about four playings before they are understood.

Here's my ranking of the top 25 public courses in Buffalo-Niagara:  http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/?p=618

[John Foley]

Would love to know what you think would not have been built at Ivy Ridge - If I would hazard a bet I'd say 7 & 10 (I think there is a better holes out there than these in that routing) and while not a big fan of tight tree lined holes I actually liked the two long fives next to each other 6 & 14.

Also - Blaine Harrison shaped the greens at another off the beaten path path course, Reserivoir Creek  in Naples and did a very solid job.

BTW - I liked the list - Have always liked the lower course at Peak n Peak and a few others I haven't played in years = Holland Hills & Dande Farms. Based upon your list I obviously need to see Harvest Hill & Hickory Stick again.

[Ronald Montesano]

You are wise...Ivy Ridge heard about Blaine from Reservoir Creek at a winter golf meeting.

I don't like either of the par fives you mentioned. The one takes the right to left out of play completely and I think that the water pinches in too tightly on both.

I actually like # 10 and I think that seven should clear out the trees on the right and run a big waste hazard up the right side, a la Pete Dye at Harbor Town.

I would have liked to have seen a split fairway or two on the course.

[Tom_Doak]

Finally, and most important, he reveals that Cornell shows two faces of his father's work.  Here is the quote:

"If you play the back nine at Cornell, which is the original nine, you'll see the difference between my father's work in the '30s and his work in the '50s. The front nine, which is the second nine built, the bunkers are more bold. The bunkers are on the top of the ground. This is more classical style. The edging is more artful, kind of lacey or serrated."

I preferred the back nine, myself, when I played the course last summer.

Ronald:

Are any of the bunkers serrated?  They weren't when I was playing there in the early 1980's ... the edges had been smoothed out over time.  I wonder if they have re-done them recently, and if so, do you know who did the work?

[Ronald Montesano]

Tom,

You know, when I re-read the quote, I wonder if they got it wrong. Is he/they saying that the original nine bunkers are serrated or the newer nine?  Are lacy and serrated the same thing?  I don't believe so.  One is gentle and curvy, while the other is jagged and edgy.

If you look at this layout (http://bigred2.athletics.cornell.edu/golf/facilities/facilities.htm) you'll see the back nine as it is today. From what the members told me, the original nine ran 15-18, 10-14, with the course starting and ending at that hilltop (what a great green that 14th hole has!)

I was playing in a NYSGA state days event last summer, but I did get out and shoot the course beforehand...let me go through my photos and I can then determine a bit more about the bunkers.

[Ronald Montesano]

All right then...I've gone through the 140 images I shot at RTJ Cornell last year and can safely say that the Front nine (the second one built by Trent) is full of tilted moon pies, those big, round sandboxes that he loved, completely devoid of character with sand flashed up the face at a lazy angle. There are two holes (6 and 7) where he sequences them (greenside 6, left fairway 7) to create depth and a second, sneaky trap hazard. The rest of the nine is boring bunkering.

The back nine (the original half that he designed) is filled with many of the same bunkers, so his son's quote from earlier in this thread is not exactly accurate. However, there are a few bunkers that exhibit irregular (read: non-circular) shapes, one of which almost resembles a scar!

I think that Cornell is a perfect prelude to what RTJ would promote regarding hazards...easy to maintain, difficult to traverse sandpits. When I think about the steroidal sand holes he created at Tanglewood West in North Carolina, I can trace their genesis.

[Ronald Montesano]

Tom and others,

Here is a link to images I shot last summer in a hurry, prior to the tournament that PM

http://s46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/RTJ%20at%20Cornell%20University/

[Roger Wolfe]

What a great thread.  Being a Cornell grad I remember paying $110 per semester for a walking membership.  Our frat house was about 500 yards from the back nine (across the road from the clubhouse).  We would carry a 75 lb golf bag (loaded down with beer) and usually only made it to the point where we could just turn left and head back home.

What a deal.  What a course.  We never appreciated just how good we had it!

[Doug Wright]

Ron,

I hadn't seen this thread or your list of 25 WNY puiblic courses till now.

http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/?p=618

A number of the older courses you listed are familiar to me from my junior days in WNY. Nice shout out to Elkdale, a short but underrated course that I played in high school golf matches when the back nine was brand new. I still don't care for the back nine--it was and still is a bit of a stark contrast to the original front nine that has better holes.

I'm surprised that Holiday Valley ranks so high. I haven't played it since the 2007 redo (I think I last played it in 2003, when it was reworked some from its poor routing etc. but not as much as Albanese did in 2007). I thought the flat front nine was really bland and the back nine through the ski slopes better but contrived. The change to 11--one of the worst holes I'd ever played--is of course welcomed.

Regarding Cornell, I think it is an underrated golf course. There are a number of really fine holes there, such as the 4th and the 10th, and a good variety of par 4s. The 11th is just a brute of a hole as I recall. The 18th was a great finishing hole before it was shortened back in the 1970s for safety reasons.  I like the flow of the course too as it goes out into the woods on the front nine then back into the meadow and sort of the same on the back (the tee shot out of the trees on the par 5 13th was one that I liked). Agree that the 14th greensite on the hill is excellent. Don't recall the bunkering all that well except my sense is the back 9 bunkers had more character, depth and strategy.

Ron, have you done (or plan to do) a list of the top 25 private WNY courses?

[Ronald Montesano]

Ask and you shall receive:  http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/?p=1041

[Doug Wright]

Ask and you shall receive:  http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/?p=1041

Thanks, interesting list. Interesting to me also that CCB is #3--I was pretty sure it would be #1, but of course (a) I'm a Ross ophile and (b) unfortunately I haven't played CCB or any others on your list except Moonbrook and Bartlett. (While growing up in Olean I was mainly a public course player except Bartlett for HS and junior matches and caddy days)  Seems like nearly every course on your list has undergone changes like a few new holes or more in their existence.

Have you played Pennhills just across the PA border in Bradford? If so, where would it rank on your list?

[Ronald Montesano]

I think that CCB could easily be ranked #1...its weak holes (1 and 2) come early in the round. I wish that #8 were a Biarritz...it sets up for that type of green. I think that it closes with an incredible back nine, with 10-12 making up one act, 13-15 a second and 16-18 capping it off. I think that it has a much better finish than Crag Burn, whose 17 and 18 are average, although 16 at CB is better than 17 at CCB. I think that River Oaks, upon further review might be #3, followed by CB at #2 and CCB at #1.

In addition, Moonbrook should probably be #16, TV #17 and FV #18.

In addition, I would probably rank Pennhills between Moonbrook and Transit Valley.

In addition, I would certainly slot Pine Acres, the public course up the road from PH, in my third quintet of public courses.