NY and Pennsy Public golf ...

[Ronald Montesano]

Doak's notes, I believe, came before the redesign by Hurdzan.

The point to the list is not to say that all 30 are at the same level, but that as a body of work, they might stand with any other state's top 30 public courses (and keep in mind, this is not including the Montauks, Bethpages and Tallgrasses of the Island.)

You slipped up when you compared Sagamore to Plainfield.  Plainfield, as I recall, is a private Ross, removing it from the comparison. Give me a public Ross (other than #2) that lines up with Sagamore or Mark Twain and we'll wage a debate.

I love when an adversary slips in a "you're better than that." Makes the competition/debate that much more pointed. Don't overestimate me, Mr. Ward, I may not be better than that.

[JNC Lyon]

Upstate List for Matt:

Buffalo-Niagara:  Seneca Hickory Stick, Links at Ivy Ridge, Harvest Hill, Diamond Hawk, Glen Oak, Arrowhead, Ironwood, Sheridan Park, Byrncliff, Peek 'n Peak

Rochester:  Ravenwood, Greystone, Mill Creek, Durand-Eastman, Deerfield

Syracuse:  Timber Banks, Lafayette Hills, Atunyote, Shenandoah

Central-East NY:   Hiawatha, Conklin, Seven Oaks, Mark Twain, En-Joie, Leatherstocking,

Upstate East: Tom Carvel, Saratoga National, Thendara, Sagamore, Pound Ridge

Matt, if one wishes to put 30 public-access courses from any other state up against these 30, I'm in for supporting them. Take a look at Bethpage...you have the greatness of the Black, the near-greatness of the Red, then on down through the other crayons. That's public golf anywhere. I cannot speak for my Pennsyltucky neighbors, but I'm sure that they can come up with a similar list.

I haven't played Tom Carvel, but I hear mixed things.  Perhaps Malone would be a better choice?  John Blain had good things to say.  Also isn't one of the Chautauqua courses a Donald Ross?  In general, though, I agree with your premise.  The 30th best public course in most states will be on the same level as the 30th best on that list.

Nobody said Sagamore was in Plainfield's league.  Isn't Plainfield one of Ross's very best?  If so, a course that is a couple notches below is still of considerable merit, don't you think?

[Ronald Montesano]

Look up two posts...Matt compares Sagamore to Plainfield.

I like Tom Carvel but could easily replace it with Malone or something else up Lake Placid way.

Chautauqua is a nice place for philosophers and plowmen, but its golf courses are unremarkable. If one is a Ross, it was designed from afar by the master.

[JNC Lyon]

Look up two posts...Matt compares Sagamore to Plainfield.

I like Tom Carvel but could easily replace it with Malone or something else up Lake Placid way.

Chautauqua is a nice place for philosophers and plowmen, but its golf courses are unremarkable. If one is a Ross, it was designed from afar by the master.

Ron,

That's my point.  Matt brings up these comparisons that no one has made anywhere, like comparing Seaview Bay to Pine Valley.  Sagamore is not Plainfield? SO WHAT.  It is still a solid public layout that compares well with its peers.

[Ronald Montesano]

That's the fun of arguing with Matt...he has his own battle plans and he is a hell of an adversary. To the best of my knowledge, he has never rolled over and conceded defeat.

[David Lott]

Massive overthinking. KISS rule applies. You don't build what people don't want.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

My point on The Sagamore -- is a simple one. It is a nice resort and has a few holes of note. For anyone to march up there and see Ross in all his glory when held against his better work would be in a bit of a disappointment. Hats off to the folks there for putting in some serious $$ to upgrade the place -- the course has had drainage issues in the past. There are a few holes of note -- I really like the 1st especially -- but like a good trailer to the movie -- there's not much after it that really builds the fanfare even more so. Let me point out if you played another Ross layout -- the one in French Lick, IN -- you would see even more of his handiwork there. Once again the Hoosier State trumpets what The Empire provides.

Want another apples to apples example ?

Try Mount Washington in Breton Woods, NH. The course is a good bit beyond The Sagamore in plenty of ways -- hats off to Brian Silva for a skillful restoration there -- reopened in late 2008 with his efforts getting high marks.

JNC -- you and Joe and your minions embrace The Bay as some sort of jewel -- but I did mention several other short courses of note as a way to provide context -- my friend, you need to play a wider range of courses from which to drawm upon before boldly proclaiming your "definite" set of conclusions. You have much to learn my apprentice (Star Wars quote) -- had to say that for effect.

Ron:

Check out my comments to JNC -- regarding Ross work at French Lick, IN -- looks like I "licked" you on that one partner. Also, check out my comments on Mount Washington too.

You make broad generalizations without really playing and understanding what the competition is. You argue in the vacuum about NY and I applaud your tenacity -- but the USA has come plenty of ways and the competition is extremely keen -- plenty of other locales / states have not even received an iota of applause -- yet.

You harp on what NY State has and I have played the vast majority of the courses you listed. There are some good ones
in that mixture but you will soon see -- the cannons are being mounted by me and you will see experience their fury (fun stuff I might add).

[Ronald Montesano]

I will agree with the vaccuum element...I have not played the wide array of courses you seem to have experienced.

I would like a list of 30 publics from Indiana and Colorado, that you consider to be of superior quality. The ones I listed are not crapped-out munis or mom-and-pop, fun-former-farms (we have both of those, too.) The ones listed are professionally designed and built. The problem continues to be that NYS has greater privates than CO or IN combined, so the standard to which you are elevating one course (Ross at French Lick) is not valid.  IF you give a list of privates in CO or IN that equal the privates in NYS, then back it up with a list of publics in those states that equals the NYS ones, I'll consider concession.

[Dan Herrmann]

David Lott,
I think you just hit a home run with that comment.  Granted, I was a cash-starved golfer as a kid and in college in Buffalo, but I honestly never had a desire to play a CCFAD.  I was very content playing the Tonawanda munis - they were fun, cheap, and very close to home.

They'll never show up on a ratings list, but I couldn't have cared less.

I think Matt is 100% correct.  Public golf in NY and PA is not as good as some other states.  But that's not a knock on the fine people of NY or PA - it's just that we had different priorities (like my father putting food on the table).

Tricks,
Matt is solely comparing publics to publics; the quality of privates is not a consideration in his argument.

(Off topic - I still don't really care about ratings lists, but I did notice with joy that Monroe made it back into the Golfweek classic top 100)

[Andy Troeger]

Ron,
Chris Clouser wrote a book about 35 quality public courses in Indiana...in order from the book:

Heartland Crossing, Hickory Stick, Legends of Indiana, Timbergate, Otter Creek, Indiana University, Hulman Links, French Lick, Sultan's Run, Chariot Ridge, Covered Bridge, Champions Pointe, Belterra, Grand Oak, Buck Point, The Fort, Prairie View, Purgatory, Bear Slide, Rock Hollow, Mystic Hills, Cobblestone, Noble Hawk, Brookwood, Glendarin Hills, Warren GC at Notre Dame, Blackthorn, Aberdeen, White Hawk, Coyote Crossing, Purdue Kampen, Harrison Hills, Trophy Club, Eagle Creek, Brickyard Crossing.

Pete Dye's Course at French Lick is another new one. Others not listed that have some merit include Juday Creek, Beechwood, and West Chase. That's 39. You've probably never heard of most of those, and I've not heard of most of the ones you listed for NY. If you want more that are professionally designed and built, I can keep going.

Note: I don't mean this as a ringing endorsement of every course in Chris' book. Some are certainly better than others.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Thanks for mentioning -- I will list my best from IN so the comparisons / contrasts can be made.

Dan:

Well said -- I am comparing public to public and IN and CO are miles ahead of NY and PA in that regard. I will post a roster of choices shortly.

Ron:

There's no "seem to have experienced" -- aspect in terms of the courses I have played.

I have actually played the ones mentioned and in many cases have a very good memory of what is present.

Ron, you're still mising my original point -- the gap in NY is the greatest in the USA when privates are held in versus debate with the public counterparts. If NY State had the cumulative talents of the IN and / or CO public courses that gap would be considerably narrower. You won't know that because you have not played the ones in question -- I have.

The CO and IN public side is rock solid -- has a combination of affordable and CCFAD types plus the wealth of talent from many top tier architects. I will post and I will be expecting the concession.

[Andy Troeger]

I actually think Colorado probably has better public golf than Indiana, even if I'm a native Hoosier. 

This one's off the top of my head: Cougar Canyon, Four Mile Ranch, Dalton Ranch, Red Sky Norman, Red Sky Fazio, Lakota Canyon, Devil's Thumb, Breckenridge, Raven at Three Peaks, Redlands Mesa, Fossil Trace, CommonGround, Haymaker, Murphy Creek, Broadmoor East, Broadmoor West, Broadmoor Mountain, Riverdale Dunes, Ridge at Castle Pines North, Red Hawk Ridge, Bear Dance, Cordillera Summit, Cordillera Mountain, Cordillera Valley, Snowmass, Rio Grande, River at Keystone, Pole Creek, Plum Creek, Arrowhead, Walking Stick, Crested Butte.

I've only played about half of these, but there truly are a lot of great options. I'm pretty sure there are others I've forgotten.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Throw in Highland Meadows in Windsor, CO -- plus Vista Ridge from Jay Moorish. Saddle Rock in Aurora and Eagle Ranch in Eagle, CO -- which is one of the better AP designs I have played.

The gap between CO and NY public -- save for Bethpage Black -- is miles apart. I think IN public golf is very, very good -- may not be at the level of CO golf but it's also a good ways beyond The Empire State and Keystone States.

I will tell you this -- you can combine the best from NY AND PA -- and either CO or IN would still win out if you posted a top 20.

[Steve Burrows]

Ron, you're still mising my original point -- the gap in NY is the greatest in the USA when privates are held in versus debate with the public counterparts. If NY State had the cumulative talents of the IN and / or CO public courses that gap would be considerably narrower. You won't know that because you have not played the ones in question -- I have.

Actually, your ORIGINAL point was concerned with a broader question: "WHY [my emphasis] do The Empire and Keystone State have such a dearth of really outstanding public courses".  Yet despite your many posts on your own thread, you hardly seem concerned with this idea anymore.  You are still trying to discuss architecture; you are still trying to rank courses against each other.  However, simply having played more courses than other people and having an informed opinion on their relative merits will never come close to answering the question of "WHY?"  These means can only ever be successful in establishing that there is indeed a discrepancy.

So, as your ORIGINAL issue is with patronage, not architects or architecture, my questions is as follows: Is the "WHY" still important, or have you dropped this notion completely, focusing instead on nitpicking with people about their rankings and personal preferences against your own?

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

No, I am concerned with the original questions and some of the folks who have responded their points in certain instances have been on target -- it still doesn't square with the fact so many designs came forward failed to really hit a home run or close remotely close to it. Keep in mind, it would not take much of an effort for any prospective public design to see what private golf was in either NY or PA. Just a bit of personal homework and it's likely a far better outcome might have happened -- maybe not throughout the state but in certain places. Minus Bethpage in the 1930's the public scene was just near empty in terms of overall quality.

Golf designs in later years added courses -- few of them have been memorable and frankly the overall state of public golf in both NY and PA lacked considerably behind not only the private side -- which is clearly obvious -- but even when compared to other states such as NJ, to name one quick example.

Plenty of excuses have been brought forward -- but the gap has only become wider with time -- as I said from the beginning no other two states have that wide a gap between private and public as The Empire and Keystone States.

Steve, wake up and smell the coffee -- I only responded to people like Ron who weighed in with his idea that NY's collective public course quality was very good and equal or even better than the ones I mentioned (see CO and IN listings provided by Andy). Yes, I did weigh in with my personal observations because I see my experiences as being relevant -- people can disagree surely -- but base it upon something. What's really sad is that two great states with clear private course qualities have never remotely reached their public course potential and likely will never head in that direction given the lack of players in golf today and the fact that additional hurdles -- taxes, land costs, environmental regulations are now more stringent than ever before.

The "discrepancy" between private and public is clearly there -- and when held against other states -- truly puzzles me that one side of the course aisle can be so grand and the other so lackluster.

[Steve Burrows]

Matt,

Could you please define for me the "public course potential" of a given area?  I suppose that you keep using Bethpage as a poster child for this idea of "potential," but remember that it is itself a curious case, as it is the result of a massive, New Deal era works program, not just the capitalistic endeavors of a sole individual, or a group of investors, as is the beginnings of many golf courses.  Few others had those resources at their disposal.

Ultimately, I just don't buy into your argument that the presence of great private clubs in PA of NY necessarily SHOULD lend itself to great public offerings.  There are just too many non-golf and non-architecture variables involved to ever establish such a relationship. 
 

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Sure -- happy to assist your understanding.

The topography of both NY and PA was there for the private courses -- how come public ones could not use that same land for better results than what took place? Westchester County has a slew of public courses operated through the county. Each of them is really average at best and frankly with the exception of the most recent -- Hudson Hills -- could have been much, much better. Check out the failure that abound in the Catskills region from the public / resort side of things.

PA is also blessed -- the land in and around Bucks County provides that -- heck, KBM did a wonderful job with places like Lederach and Morgan Hill -- makes me wonder why the Poconos turned out the way it did or that other top tier public courses could have been done in western Pennsy -- instead you get mediocre efforts like Stonewall and to a lesser degree a place like Nemacolin Woodlands which is more about the facility than the slightly above average Pete Dye layout.

You mention about resources at disposal - what about Cobbs Creek ? Wonderful muni in the Phillie area but instead of using that design as a mechanism to create more of such types of courses -- you get an output of nothing more than plain vanilla CCFAD's that came down the pike.

Steve -- ask youself how does anyone NOT SEE the quality of the private clubs throughout those two (2) states and NOT aspire to have at least SOME -- not all mind you -- SOME public courses worthy of being mentioned in that same caliber. You say there are, "too many ... variables to ever establish such a relationship." OK -- then how do you explain such a shortcoming. No other states in the country have such a wide disparity like NY and PA -- the public side is frankly akin to fast food golf -- minus an exception here or there -- the private side is just light years beyond those courses.

If you don't wish to see it -- so be it. I stand by what I said originally.

[Dan Herrmann]

Matt, the generally sorry state of golf in the Poconos could be the subject of its own book.  I'm thinking it's because many of the courses up there were built in the GCA Dark Ages.  The 2010's see an area past its prime as a vacation destination.

Same thing could be said about the Catskills of NY.  Stunningly beautiful scenery with a lot of stunningly boring golf.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

Beg to differ -- plenty of the courses in the Poconos were created as major vacation spots -- see the ascension of Shawnee as one example -- I try marvel at how pitiful the collective nature of golf is in that area. Ditto for the Catskills. How much trouble was it for any architect in either of those two areas to have seen the nature of private golf in either state and said how good it could be to have such courses in those respective areas. It's an incredible oversight of epic proportions and it reinforces to me how much was missed publicly in both states. You really see it when traveling to other states and seeing how much better their public side is -- and it's all not from recent times either.

[Steve Burrows]

OK, Matt. One final attempt...

I have always accepted your original premise that public golf in NY and PA is lacking when compared to private golf. 

However, you wonder whether people ever noticed this gap, and if they did, why they never did anything to rectify it?  Past mistakes and omissions notwithstanding, YOU have identified the issue in Post # 1, and many others since, correct?  So why is it that YOU are not developing solid public offerings?  Why is that YOU are not furthering the public side of golf in these regions?  Why are YOU not the patron of public golf that YOU seem to think is so sorely needed?  I emphasize YOU, because I want YOU to really think about why YOU are not the one personally addressing the issue or solving the perceived problem.  Perhaps that will give YOU some context as to why past generations could not/did not make the changes themselves.   

Let's think about it another way.  If I have read correctly, you are/were a publically elected official, right?  Presumably you noticed a deficiency in the existing system, and thought that you might be able to help out or to make a difference.  Yes?  But why is is that more people do not run for public office?  Is it that they simply don't see the issues, that they don't see the deficiencies and/or gaps?  The logic of your argument would suggest that this is the case.  However, I would suspect that many Americans have real concerns with they way they are being governed, though they have never put their name on the ballot.  Perhaps they are afraid of failure?  Perhaps they cannot afford to campaign?  Perhaps they are poor public speakers? 

In a similar manner, the likelihood is that people probably have historcally recognized the public/private gap in the NY/PA region, but had little means (or perhaps even desire) to personally change the situation; or perhaps those who do posess both resources and courage have simply made conscious decisions not to develop more noteworthy public golf options, or evn to draw greater attention to the issue. 

[Ronald Montesano]

Would Tillinghast have been available to design the Black and the Red if his own economic situation weren't so "shoddy" at the time? The BP green course, the one designed by Emmet, was acquired later on.

Go back to this premise...world class ODGs didn't have to travel far to build courses back then, as so much land was available. If they did, it was usually for a private club that had more money to offer than a public entity. I am going on a limb when I say that the New Deal initiatives were the first of their kind to promote golf (look at the irony in Obama's exclusion of golf from many of his programs!)

If not for the points that Steve raises, Bethpage would look much like Beaver Island near my home and many other, state park courses, flat and unremarkable.

I'm shocked, ultimately, that guys think that Turning Stone sucks. Isn't that distinction ultimately parallel to what Matt is bitching JNC out about on the Leatherstocking thread? I like Smith's work and I like Fazio's work...I think that many architects would have been hard-pressed to build anything on the land that RTJ2 had for Kaluhyat.

[Cliff Hamm]

Frankly...this all seems to come down to a simple correlation.  In states where private courses predominate (the northeast) there will be a very substantial gap between private and public.  The higher the quality of the privates the bigger the gap.  In states where private golf is not as common/popular and the quality of privates it typically lower the gap between private and public will be lower. 

[Matt_Ward]

Cliff:

Have to break the news to you -- in the Northeast the gap isn't that wide as what one sees with NY and PA -- it is miles and miles apart. There are other states with solid private options which have a fine public counterpoint -- NJ and MA are two that come quickly to mind.

NY and PA are devoid -- save for a very few with the BB being the best option -- in the public arena.

Ron:

Public entities did make a point in using quality work -- see Bethpage and Cobbs Creek - even VC in the Bronx was quite good until the classic era of the 20's. NYC had quite a few fine public courses -- LaTourette and Split Rock had some interesting features -- but they were more the exception the rule.

In regards to your thinking about TS -- the fact is that other flat sites have been done by architects with far better results than what you see with the total courses at TS. I like what Team Fazio have done in spots but the work at TS really bombed out -- ditto for what RTJ2 and Smith did there too.

You also had numerous privately owned daily fee courses that were created from the end of WWII to present times. What excuse do you wish to apply to them? Please see as case study #1 and #2 the fine work at the Poconos and Catskills.

[Ronald Montesano]

Matt,
I'll apply bad architects (Joe Finger, et al.) and misinformed owners who wanted the biggest, wettest, longest, toughest (Grossingers and The Montster come to mind.)

You give single examples of courses built with public funds...did Cobbs predate Bethpage?  Where are the others, built with public funds, to substantiate a pattern?

You could probably say that the guys who made the architectural hires at TS used the same theory as their Catskills ancestors, but I still don't think that the two courses are below the level of very good.

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

Check out the various public courses that NYC had within its portfolio.

A number of them were good -- and frankly were poorly managed over the years.

The fact is that so many attempts at PA and NY golf -- produced goose egg in terms of real quality.

Sure you can cite Ravenwood and Greystone -- but frankly they are more the exception than anything else.

And, when those courses are held to a national standard -- they fall considerably behind.

I have a like for Grossinger's -- it could and should have been better. The Monster at The Concord only has a few holes of note -- the rest is a joke and waste of time. Bill Mitchell did Tarry Brae and that could have been much, much better. I can go on and on.

In regards to Cobbs Creek -- I believe it predates Bethpage -- likely the boys from Phillie can confirm that.

Last item -- TS is well conditioned and for the right price will pamper its guests to the max -- it doesn't contain quality designs worthy of the state ratings it gets from Golfweek.