Influences on an Architect as evidenced in their early work

[Niall C]

I was just thinking as I listened to the radio the other day that you can usually tell a band or singers influences particularly early in their career before they fully develop their own style. That got me thinking whether that holds true with golf course architects. Does the gca's particular influences show through more in their earlier designs. The influence could either be another gca, a style or a course.

For instance when I play Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart, I can't help thinking that Mark Parsinen was more influenced by Dornoch than any other course as evidenced in the situation of both courses giving a raised beach effect like Dornoch and both have a longish par 4 hole with skyline green similar to Dornochs 16th.

Of course their are other influences in their but to my mind both courses shout out Dornoch. I suppose to test my theory fully I'll have to wait until he produces another handful of courses and see how they fair.

Any other examples ?

Niall

[Tom_Doak]

Niall:

The original version of Crooked Stick [pre-1985] had greens where Mr. Dye had tried to imitate different traits of Ross, Tillinghast, MacKenzie, and Macdonald's styles.  It was a bit weird to see bunkers and greens that were so different from one another, but it had great variety.

When he went back to rebuild the greens in 1985, he changed a lot of the bunkering to his newer style, where only the influence of Macdonald is apparent.

[Mac Plumart]

I can see some Scotland courses in Dye's work, particularly at The Golf Club, and very clearly some Raynor especially at TPC Sawgrass.

Tom Doak's work reminds me of Mackenzie.

Frankly, I see some Dye in Nicklaus's courses...but Dismal River and Sebonack seem a bit different, perhaps for obvious reasons.

Mike Riley's greens seem to remind me of Mackenzie.

Ellis Maples reminds me of Donald Ross. 

[Jeff_Mingay]

Though he's changed it up really well from course to course since, my ol' buddy Rod Whitman clearly shows a Pete Dye influence at Wolf Creek in Alberta, circa the early 1980s - grass down, flat sand bottom bunkers with a "Scottish look" about them; some beautifully aggressive green surface contour; and even railroad ties, here and there. Anyone with knowledge of golf couse architecture would pick up on this (in a good way). Rod was working with Pete at the time; most notably at Austin Country Club.

[Carl Rogers]

I do not have enough experience, travel or knowledge of the field.
For those of you that do that are anywhere near the East Coast, Riverfront (RDG completed late ninties, started early ninties) might offer a number of insights into this topic.
This is the very reason why I have been prodding any of you to take a trip to Suffolk, VA for a long time.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Influences aren't always positive either.
And it appears to be very difficult to shake the negative traits even over the course of a career.
Cheers

[Niall C]

Niall:

The original version of Crooked Stick [pre-1985] had greens where Mr. Dye had tried to imitate different traits of Ross, Tillinghast, MacKenzie, and Macdonald's styles.  It was a bit weird to see bunkers and greens that were so different from one another, but it had great variety.

When he went back to rebuild the greens in 1985, he changed a lot of the bunkering to his newer style, where only the influence of Macdonald is apparent.

Tom

Thats interesting. Sounds like Dye consciously tried to envoke a style or styles both in his original layout and on his redesign.

In my original post I was thinking more about how gca's might have subconsciously betrayed their influences without realising but then the example I gave probably wasn't the best for that. Having had the pleasure of meeting Mark Parsinen once I doubt that he left much to the subconscious at either course.

Mac mentions your Mackenzie influence but I must admit I didn't see much of it at Renaissance either in the routing or the individual hole designs. The only hint of it that I could see (and bear in mind I've seen little Mackenzie in the flesh) was small pimple at the back of the par 5 14th (?) green which I thought very reminiscent of the back of his greens at Duff House Royal. But then Renaissance is a recent design. Were you consciously using Mackenzie in your early designs ?

Jeff

And what about yourself, any early influences you would care to confess to, and if so how did they play out in your work ?

Niall