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Mark_Fine

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We need to discuss "mounding" again!
« on: February 08, 2002, 02:12:55 PM »
I saw a bunch of courses this past week and focused intently on their “mounding”.  I believe mounding has almost as much impact on the quality of a design as does the bunkering.  Clearly architects are using mounding to try to simulate that “links” feel into their design.  I sometimes wonder if they are all trying too hard?  Take a site like Southern Dunes that has little or no natural features to begin with.  Is any kind of mounding really going to look natural when you look over at the housing lots next to the fairways and see dead flat land??  

Maybe mounding is like bunkers in that it is one of those “excused” or “allowed” golf design features?  It’s not a natural feature on most sites but architects can’t resist incorporating mounds into their designs!

Anyone understand what I am getting at?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: We need to discuss "mounding" again!
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2002, 02:28:08 PM »
Understand what you're getting at? Are you joking? I think a lot of us understand all too well at this point!

I think you asked a good question and also answered it very well with what you said you were wondering about it!

I sure don't know the course but this might be good example of a great use for trees or bushes or something like that! At least they might look more natural than poor imitation "links" mounding on a dead flat site in...where did you say it was?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

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Re: We need to discuss "mounding" again!
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2002, 02:33:13 PM »
Just outside Orlando!  I don't want to just pick on this course (the real problem with this one is that it has 100 too many bunkers).  I'd like to hear comments on mounding in general!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: We need to discuss "mounding" again!
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2002, 02:52:43 PM »
My true feeling about mounding, Mark, is that it's quite hard to do well and on certain sites it's extremely hard to do well, particularly in an aesthetic sense. So hard to do well aesthetically, in fact, that I might feel that mostly it shouldn't be done! But I do understand why it's being done on many sites. And the question is, what else are you gonna do to alternate for it's function? Again, the easy answer might just be trees.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

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Re: We need to discuss "mounding" again!
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2002, 03:15:20 PM »
Careful, Mark - I think John Conley really likes Southern Dunes & you might be kicking a hornet's nest...

I think mounding may be one of the most difficult features to really study.  At the extremes, you have the natural mounding that appears on links courses - most seem to love this, both aesthetically & strategically - and you have the peripheral (out of play) repetitive mounding that appears on some courses of the site's whipping boys - many seem to hate this, both aesthetically & strategically.

In the HUGE gulf in between, one encounters mounding like the those argued over a few weeks ago - I'm blanking on the course, I think it was a Fowler course in NY - which appears totally unnatural & yet, being in play, has strategic value. You also have situations like at Lost Dunes, where Tom Doak reported that one esteemed individual hated one of the unnatural mounds fronting a greensite until he found out the mound was natural. ;)

I would tend to favor the idea that a mound that is truly strategic could indeed enhance the value of a given hole, natural or not, while mounds out of play are generally pretty nauseating.

The easiest way to determine the value of a mound is to find out who made it - if it was Fazio or Rees Jones, obviously it's bad, if it was someone from the early 20th century, it's obviously good!!!  ;) (Sorry, couldn't resist that.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

RJ_Daley

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Re: We need to discuss "mounding" again!
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2002, 03:44:32 PM »
It seems to me that if we are going to discuss the merits of mounding on a flat site, we should determine if it is gratuitous mounding for visual effect, or strategic mounding sparingly placed.  I would think of Country Club of Charleston as sparing use of strategic mounding, although not very visually exciting.  Whistling Straits / Irish Course as gratuitous mounding work that is stunning but often not relavant to the field of play.  I love Langford's mounds at Lawsonia because they are strategically placed with flat bunkers fronting them, and graceful gullwing shapes with graded back sides feathered into the fairways, strategically placed so they act as speed ramps to preferred places for approaches.   But mounds can fool you. What seems to be a mere isolated pile of dirt that forms a mound is usually decpetive in the amount of dirt it takes to actually make them integrated into fairway grading designs.   I agree that mounds can make or break a golf courses appeal, and are the backbones of many designs.  But, those favorable mounding results can come from sparingly used to massive earthworks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: We need to discuss "mounding" again!
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2002, 05:53:07 PM »
The question is not the moving of dirt to create movement in the land which appears and acts in harmony with the general gepgraphy of the region, but making mounds for sight lines and hole definition as well as some strategy. Mounding is rarely done in the manner which works in harmony with nature. And I really thinks it sucks in almost all cases.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

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Re: We need to discuss "mounding" again!
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2002, 07:19:59 PM »
This past week I saw mounds designed by Fazio, Love (not sure who does his shaping work), Nicklaus, Smyers and Hills.  Some of the best work was actually done by Nicklaus at a course called Ocean Hammock Golf Club in Palm Coast, Florida.  Nicklaus did have the advantage of a seaside site and designed a very good golf course.  But even here and at all the other courses there were cases where the mounding was repetitive and/or just very contrived!  However, even these types of mounds such as the waves of mounds you often see around greens, offer strategic implications.  They can feed to chipping areas or prevent balls from carooming into worse fates.  Who out there is doing some of the best mounds?  I guess by best I mean those that not only play well but look good!

  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: We need to discuss "mounding" again!
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2002, 07:27:09 PM »
George Pazin mentioned something of note. If a course is old (i.e. often termed classic whether rightly or wrongly) and if that same course has mounding it is usually defined as strategic and insightful.

Fast forward to modern design. Too many people throw labels out that mounding on recently opened courses is unsightly, completely out of place and has little, if any strategic merit.

I know that sounds like a broad brush, but not all courses from yester year that have mounding are the Almighty's gift to design.

Yes, I am well aware that mounding is often used to cover the tracks of an inept design at times. But, case in point, Mark raises the subject of Southern Dunes. I like the course --and, yes, there are plenty of bunkers. So?

When you are building a course in central Florida (Haines City to be precise) you can be sure the topography is not going to make the cover of Field & Stream magazine or National Geographic. Smyers did imbue the terrain with his hand -- no doubt, but the strategic implications in playing Southern Dunes are very good.  The mixture of holes is sound and, although I'm sorry to see there are tons of houses around the property, you have to wonder how much of a factor should that be in discussing the merits of the course? Do we blame the architect because the ownership or other parties maxed out the adjoining land?

Southern Dunes maxes out to 7,227 yards and from the tips carries a jusitified CR of 74.7 and a 135 Slope. The course has plenty to offer if you play from the appropriate teeing area.

Now, I do agree with Mark, that Smyers does have a habit in using the same type of motif with other designs he has done (Blue Heron Pines / East, Royce Brook, etc). But, I wonder, don't other architects (past and present) do that as well from time to time or even continually?

Certain states have quality land and others have to have it manufactured. Florida is a case in point. I see the mounding at Southern Dunes to work well given the final product. If I had to point out another Florida course where the mounding is out of place I would say Loxahatchee. That's just my opinion and I could be wrong.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tony Ristola

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Re: We need to discuss "mounding" again!
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2002, 07:30:45 PM »
Interesting this came up today.  

I was out at Old Marsh having fun.  Love the flow of the fairways, the greens and strategies are interesting.  The bite-offs from the tee can catch you off guard, the width suckering you away from the best line to attack, and yes the amount of water can be punishing on an off day.  But I looked at the mounding and thought...what if only the bunkers were the only visible, elevated areas.  A couple guys I know who've been there (one who knows Pete) aren't the hugest fans of the place, but I like it.  There was only one place I thought ugh when I looked at the mounding.  

It's an inexpensive concept to construct so long a you don't have to put in miles of drainage, and perhaps it's not the easiest to maintain either.

The mounding which is sharp and doesn't flow seamlessly into the fairway does help frame (your favorite term; right guys ;D ) helps the player pick specific targets, helps hide the green of some poorly positioned layup shots, and offers challenging lies to the shots not so well executed shots.  

I'd admit that most courses don't do a great job with mounding, making it look like repetitive mammary mounds (dept. of redundancy dept.), and forcing it into fine landscapes but on this site it works for me.  The site is concealed to the rest of the world, the fairways seem isolated from one another due to the amount of wetlands, and the mounding helps give a different look to each hole.  The other alternative...get the fairways rolling, but that would have required tons of fill..which it doesn't seem they had (and didn't want to truck in either.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: We need to discuss "mounding" again!
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2002, 06:02:39 AM »
TonyR;

Good description of Old Marsh! Are you aware of what Dye did or had to do on that site general drainage-wise? Apparently it was really something--maybe even of a prototype!

What are you doing down there in Florida--planning on spending the rest of your life there? Can we now consider you a European expatriot?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We need to discuss "mounding" again!
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2002, 07:17:31 AM »
Matt,
I agree with you about the land like at Haines City, Smyers had to do something.  It's a good course but not that good.  Maybe a 5 or so on the Doak scale if that puts it into perspective.  Where do you put it?

The only reason I brought up the housing lots was to point out what the land looked like before he moved all the dirt.  

I am becoming more and more convinced that Smyers courses are coming right off the CAD system.  His holes from course to course look nearly identical.  And I'm sorry, the quantity and shaping of his bunkers are just too much for me.  Many look way out of place and just goofy.  Every one of them is shaped the same way is it not?  They are very artificial looking as well.  I can just picture a site like Pacific Dunes or Sand Hills and Smyers doing the same style bunkering and mounding there  :(  

Like I said in another post, if you only get to ever play one of his courses maybe the repetition doesn't matter.  I still say remove 100 of the 183 bunkers at Southern Dunes and the course jumps up a notch.  More importantly the time to play probably drops from 5 1/2 hours to 4 1/2  :) :)

Just my opinion!

Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: We need to discuss "mounding" again!
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2002, 11:00:24 AM »
Mark:

I might rate Southern Dunes a bit higher -- 5.5 seems about right to me. I've played the course at least a dozen times -- primarily because of visits to the PGA Show. The course is strong when played from the tips and when the wind kicks up a bit you have to show some solid control off the tee and with your approaches.

To Smyers credit he did shape the fairways otherwise you would have the usual DULLSVILLE Florida layout. I'm not a fan of mounds for the sake of mounds, but you have to realize we are talking about central Florida -- this isn't the Lehigh Valley! ;) Keep in mind the architect is not responsible for what COMES AFTER he leaves the site. It's unfortunate the homes are there but the qualities of Southern Dunes as a golf course are there in my opinion.

As far as the bunkers is concerned you do make a valid point -- there might be overkill. But what other defenses are appropriate? Do you literally dig out parts of the property for the traditional and yawning waterfall?  ::) Would Smyers be better off in creating these goofy windmill clown's mouth greens you see on some courses? I like Smyers because he understands the importance of tee-to-green play and tries to make his designs flow that way.

The problem is not the bunkers automatically. It's the lack of awareness on the average golfer to avoid them. As a result you get people who will take forever when they stray. This happens at other Smyers courses -- particularly Royce Brook West, to name just one -- Blue Heron Pines / East is another in the local area.

I do agree with you that Smyers needs to vary the shape, placement and depth of the bunkers he uses. Otherwise, you are absolutely right on target the bunkers appear as the same time after time after time. Sometimes less can be more and it's something that Smyers might want to consider on other layouts. I don't know if you have had the opportunity to play Four Streams GC in Bealsville, MD (just west of DC on the Potomac). The bunkers there have a wild and varied design usage. The plus with Four Stream is that the course, though originally touted as a daily fee, is a private club and does not get the continual amount of play.

I like Steve Smyers courses generally because you must demonstrate you can play golf at a certain level. He does not "dumb-down" courses. Maybe I lean that way because I'm looking at his designs with reference only to the better player.

One thing to consider is that Smyers is a fine player and understands the value of critical and core shot values on a course. I'd also recommend Wolf Run in Zionsville, IN (just outside of Indy). Demanding no nonsense course - among the toughest you can play from the tips. Some people absolutely hate it -- I view the course as bold and "in your face" design. I imagine some would prefer more subtle and less strident designs.

Lastly, all arcghitects have styles. I would hope that in the course in developing his portfolio Smyers will blend in other aspects to compliment what he does well. Of course -- only time and future projects will tell, however, that can be said for all architects.

Hope this helps ... ;)  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We need to discuss "mounding" again!
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2002, 03:19:47 PM »
Matt,
Matt,
5 or 5.5 that's as close as your going to get so we are in agreement on the quality of the course.  I try to never let one facet of a design overly bias my opinion so even though I have a problem with his excessive bunkering, I still rate it overall quite well.    

Symers clearly understands strategy I'll give him that.  His courses are always "strategic".  I have not seen the one in MD and I'll have to go check it out.

Got to run!
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tony Ristola

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Re: We need to discuss "mounding" again!
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2002, 08:01:48 PM »
TEPaul:  His fairways were sloped away from the wetlands to prevent any runoff into the wetlands...his drainage was the first publicized for its recycling.  May have been used before but I hadn't heard of it before Old Marsh.  

This was also used also on a project I was a laborer on and Tom Doak loves...Perry Dye's Cypress GC in California.  There are 10 sump stations to drain the fairways to, pump the water to the retention lakes and then release to the storm system...  It's in a flood control area, and after the rare LA deluge the waste bunkers and low areas retain the water keeping the fairways dry, then when the storm system is capable the club can begin pumping and releasing their storage into the storm system.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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