[Patrick_Mucci]

What makes a plateau green great, the disparity in the elevation of the tiers, the length of the incoming shot, the narrowness of the necks, the general elevation of the green,
a prevailing wind, combinations of the above.

What are the best old, and MODERN examples of plateau greens ?

Why don't we see more of them ?

[Paul Richards]

There used to be a really cool one on the Medalist (the
third?), a short par 3.

Then Greg Norman knocked it down and ruined the hole.

[Richard_Goodale]

Th 18th at Brora is great.  210 yards straight uphill.  It sits under the dirty bar in the clubhouse and 95% of the people who hit enough club to get it to the upper plateau, take too much club and have to then chip back downhill in view of all the cognscenti.  If you wimp out and make it to the lower tier, you could be chipping uphill till the cows come home, which they do, every day at about 5:45 PM.

[ian andrew (Guest)]

My favourite green is the 11th at Stafford CC near Rochester, New York. Its a Walter Travis green which has a front right plateau and a left rear plateau split by a large lower area between. What makes the palateau's spectacular is that the plateaus are dramatic bowls. Putting from one to the other can be a test unlike any I have seen, the lower area breaks in multiple direction away from the center. If you are just short, you can still have a difficult mid length putt.

[R.S._Barker]

NGLA's 11th is a prime Plateau hole, although technically it could be a double plateau..OR..if your really wanting to stretch your love of the best course on the planet...a mini Biarritz. * ok..so I love this course that much and really want a Biarritz on it..*smirk *

I compiled 3 pictures of the 11th's green and uploaded them to my gallery on my Silverleaf site :

http://members.tripod.com/silverleaf_design/gallery.htm


By the way, my plateau page at my site has a pic of the 17th hole at Yale..courtesy of this site.

As to your query of why Plateau holes are not done that often in modern times..you could ask that same question of any of the classic hole designs. Perhaps it comes down to the fact that most modern architects do not want to overuse these designs in their layouts...or that some do not truly want to use them..feeling they are falling back on old techniques ..or perhaps the owner of said new course does not want that type of design made.

Personally, any course that includes the plateau and other classic designs is a great addition.

Just a thought,

[les claytor]

Charleston Muni (SC) has a really fine plateau green on the par five 7th.  The longest hole on the course, the drive is wide open for about 310 to a cross pond.  Then we're faced with a 200 yard shot to a green built up approx. 12 feet with surrounding bunkers cut below making it quite a drastic green site on an otherwise flat site with low profile design.  I think the green works well as a par five because it requires both long carries for the bold, and accurate pitch shots for the conservative.  The convex green surface is no cinch two putt either.

Perhaps the greatest natural plateau I've seen is the blood curdling Pt. Geary ridge at North Berwick that serves as the green sites for the first and the 14th.  With the sea in the background, green surface as profile, wind howling, hold on to your hat boys.

[les claytor]

Another more famous Charleston plateau green is the par-3 at Charleston CC built up about 15 feet with false front and low bunkers at the sides.  Quite a small target for a 5 iron, but it was mellowed a couple of years ago.  

Another good use of fill in the low country instead of burning it on needless mounding only affecting poor shots.

[SPDB]

Pat -

OLD -  #7 at TCC. In Ran's review he claims it is the oldest plateau green in the US. The green is diabolical. The hole is pretty straightforward par 3, with no complicated bunkering to hide pins behind, yet this hole, because of the complexity of the green, played as the second toughest at the Ryder Cup.

CLASSIC - #6 Augusta - yet another par 3. I remember reading somewhere that this was one of Crenshaw's favorite greens. The back right pin is as tough to get to from the tee as it is from the lower part of the green.

Let me try and think about a modern one

[TEPaul]

I would say without hestition that some of the best modern plateau greens (or let's call them  "plateau effects" greens) are going to be found on the new Friar's Head. The reason I might say "plateau effect" is simply the way the "effect" is designed is one that in many cases is of a meandering nature that's not going to be as easy to pick up at first as the distinctly defined "plateaus" of say NGLA's #11! But these "plateau" playabilities at Friar's are going to be every bit as much to deal with as any others you could name.

The greens that have them at Friar's are #1!!, #7!!!, #8!, #9!!, #14!! and possibly #18 to a very subtle degree. Some are so random appearing that they will probably need real  playing experience to figure out how to approach them on incoming shots.

And again the randomness of their designs, I believe, is going to create opportunities of extremely imaginative possibilities of how to putt and chip them! It will take some time, I guess, to determine if they are doable in a putting and chipping sense and how much so or whether some areas of them will fall into the "greens within a green" concept of some of NGLA's greens where if you're in the wrong area of the green a 3 putt may be your best expectation!

So how these Friar's "plateau effect" greens really do play is going to be very exciting to determine! At least one greenspace area of #7 appears so unbelievable in how to transition from one plateau to the other as to almost defy commonsense.

[RJ_Daley]

I am curious as to just what constitutes a plateau or double plateau green, technically speaking.  Perhaps George Bahto can set me straight.  I think of CC of Charleston #11 at a knoll green, even though it is not a short par 4.  Similarly, I think of #7 at Lawsonia called "the Boxcar hole" as a knoll green even though it is on another par 3.  A dramatic example of what I believe is the double plateau to the extreem is #5 at Arcadia Bluffs, a par 5 that has a green that must be well in excess of 12000sq ft.  I had previously referred to that green incorrectly as an extreem emulation of the Biarritz style of green.  I now realize that the double plateau is the correct identification.  

My questions to George would be:  Does the plateau, double plateau have to be raised significantly on 2,3 or all 4 sides?  Can a plateau rise modestly from fairway or apron grade as long as it includes significant halves or thirds on distinct terraces?  Can a knoll also be a double plateau?

I suspect that if George would see Lawsonia, he would find that it demonstrates the greatest collection of knoll-plateau greensites of any course he has seen.  Come to think of it, Wisconsin has a great number of such hole designs by Bendelow and Langford/Moreau.

[Patrick_Mucci]

RJ Daley,

I should have been more specific, I was refering more to the double plateau than an elevated green with a tier or two.

# 11 at NGLA is a fabulous green which challenges the incoming shot, any pitches or chips, and putting.  
The addition of the wind compounds the variety, and play of the hole.

It seems that double plateau's are no longer built, yet they are fun to play and provide plenty of tactical challenge.

Why aren't they built in numbers ?

[John Foley]

#3 at Kiawah Ocean Course is a great plateau green.

[George Bahto]

RJ: you asked the following (sorry, I lost track of this thread somehow)
"My questions to George would be:  Does the plateau, double plateau have to be raised significantly on 2,3 or all 4 sides?  Can a plateau rise modestly from fairway or apron grade as long as it includes significant halves or thirds on distinct terraces?  Can a knoll also be a double plateau?

I suspect that if George would see Lawsonia, he would find that it demonstrates the greatest collection of knoll-plateau greensites of any course he has seen.  Come to think of it, Wisconsin has a great number of such hole designs by Bendelow and Langford/Moreau.  

1. The Knoll hole, as such, is particular to Macdonald Raynor Banks using that name - now certainly there have been many greens built that are somewhat similar. Their "Knoll" hole has a raised single rise (plateau) covering the rear third or so of the green. These are not a doulble plateau greens

2. I think we may be confusing a "plateau greens" and the "plateaus on a green."

3. Plateaus on greens can be nearly any height - example: the first green at Westhampton has about 5 or 6 plateaus on it some just a few inches high and other significantly higher. Increible green.

Most Raynor (CB & Banks) double plateau greens are usually over a foot and a half higher that the "center", lower section of the green. Many segments are two feet higher. I like them when the two raised sections are at different heights. I built one at Stonebridge that was over 11,000 sq ft. The reason for the size?     -  the hole is very hard, a dog-leg of about 4-par, 455-yds, with a tough bunker at the corner (250-yd carry) so you have to play wide, making the hole longer and the angle to the green much more difficult. But the main reason was that, as much as I like the Raynor/Banks DP greens the are much easier to putt on than they look - usually there are hardly any undulations on each plateau and putting from one area to another is tough, yes - but the real trick its to hit your approach to the proper area. I put some movement of the individual plateaus I built - it made a great finishing hole.

Ron Forse has been trying to get me to Lawsonia for a long time - can't seen to get the time - but will soon. I really want to see Langford's work.
 

[Paul Richards]

George:

Make that trip to Lawsonia.  It is a very interesting place
and you'll really enjoy Langfords work there.

[Mashie1]

Royal Dornoch - hard to pick just one but Foxy isn't too bad.

[Robert_Walker]

No 13 at Piping is the best I've played.

[A_Clay_Man]

When I think of a plateau green I think of Blackwolf Run. The original tenth which is now the first on the valley nine, had the steepest climb ever! to a flatish green.Now that I live in the four corners the plateaus and mesa's are certainly heavy on my sight and quite inspirational.

[Rick]

#3 at La Cajuiles (Teeth of the Dog) Casa de Campo is a good one.

Many of the greens at Ballybunion New are Plateau greens and because of their small size and the constant winds, makes the New course such a difficult one to score well on. The greens are almost impossible to hit and getting up and down is no easy feat either.

[Gib_Papazian]

I noticed Patrick asked specifically for MODERN examples and  I would like to  nominate the 16th hole at Easthampton, a par four with a putting surface segmented by a deep swale in the middle running perpendicular to the line of play!

Wow, great fun. It  comes off  an  a  mini version of  #9 at Yale in some respect.

For Classic, Uncle George pointed out a couple of Raynor Double-Plateaus at NorthShore CC (L.I.)  that have to be seen to be believed.

[Doug Wright]

Continuing my Bandon theme, the 6th at Pacific Dunes is one of my favourite holes of all time, with a wonderful plateau green that falls away sharply on the right and the yawning 18 foot deep bunker protecting the left side. Is it really 18 feet deep (per the GCA course description) or 80 feet? I purposedly drove into it on my second round there just for the experience, and almost stayed in there till dark  

Also, the par 3 15th at Bandon Dunes is a really good plateau green, guarded by another yawning bunker front right and otherwise falls away on all sides.

All The Best,

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