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Mike Cirba

Interesting 1901 article with Vardon commenting on penal, cross-hazarded American courses after his visit in 1900.

Also, the idea for an "Ideal Links" springs up around Boston.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 05:01:09 PM by MCirba »

Melvyn Morrow


Mike

Great find, but alas it looks that Ran has culled many of those who cared for GCA and its history leaving a majority who seem happy with posts on OT or ranking/listings  - none of which is in any way connected to GCA.

Good luck with this post, you deserve a good response, but don’t hold your breath.

Take care and keep the good work up.

Melvyn

Jim_Kennedy

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That date seems to coincide with the 'Best Hole Discussion' that was happening abroad, and post dates Macdonald's mention of what he thought the 'Ideal first-class golf links' should encompass by 4 years or so.

Vardon was a participant in that best hole discussion, and I wonder if this article is a result of that debate. It was the impetus to get Macdonald off his duff and start collecting the materials he would need to actually be the first to produce such a course here in the U.S.   





 



 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ross Tuddenham

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While reading Darwins comments on Woking in his book golf courses of the British Isles i notice he writes

 "The two shot holes at woking do not always require quite two shots"

Then a few lines later

 "Still, continuous brassey play is not everything.."

He seemed to be mentioning this as a comparison to the "bigness" of sunningdale or walton heath.

Does this imply that when he wrote this (around 1910?) and also at the time of vardon's thoughts most mid to long par 4 (or two shot) holes required some sort of wood as a second shot?

In the article vardon shows concern about the length of the courses for the average player, just what sort of length of second shots were they faced if they could not even reach the greens with a wood, which was potentially the norm.  Or was he just reffering to the lengths needed to carry some types of hazard.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 07:19:23 PM by Ross Tuddenham »

Mac Plumart

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Are we having these same discussions over 100 years later?  Seems like it.  Weird.

Here is a cut and paste from Tom Macwood's "Crane and the Greater American Movement".  I thought it might dovetail with your post Mike.

British golf vs. American golf, and its architectural offshoot. It was a discussion that had been going on for several years in a number of different forums. The first major confrontation came in 1917 with AW Tillinghast and JH Taylor. Taylor warned that American courses were becoming too severe, to which Tilly took exception, arguing modern Americans course although more testing were also fair and enjoyable to all classes of golfer. That more severe trend can be traced to Harry Vardon and Bernard Darwin’s criticisms of American courses a few years earlier. In 1914 Vardon wrote his infamous article ‘What’s Wrong with American Golf?,’ in which he suggested American golf was not progressing because American golf courses were weak. Darwin wrote a series of critical articles while covering the Vardon/Ray tour of 1913. Those articles were syndicated by American papers and generated quite a controversy, particularly in Chicago where he was most unflattering. The result was a design and redesign spree in Chicago in the aftermath by the likes of Colt, Ross, Watson, and others. The Chicago Tribune (10/3/1916) observed: “I am of the belief, although none of the men concerned admits it, that Darwin’s critical rejection of Chicago’s claims in 1913 served to whip the executives of the most pretentious clubs into the activities that have resulted in providing the district with the most wonderful group of high test golf courses the world has today.”


As editor of American Golf Illustrated Max Behr wrote this blunt commentary in July 1914:

  “Vardon in a recent article in Everybody's Magazine places his finger upon the weak spot. After expressing the opinion that he noticed little improvement in American golf during the interim of fourteen years which separated his first visit to America from that of last year, he says:
   ‘This is not the fault of your golfers. They have not had the chance. It is the fault of those who are responsible for your courses. Because the American golfer is seldom put to a real test, he has not improved his game to any great extent. You have some good players over here, but they are not trained to play the right way. In other words, America is not getting as much out of its golf as it should. Your golfer can not play a proper game, because his course is not right.’
   Is there anyone to doubt the truth of these words? With those who know what a real testing golf course is, there can be no difference of opinion with him. Our golf courses as a whole are far from good. In a sense they are no more than kindergartens upon which the beginner can only learn his alphabet. The shots presented him to play are the simplest, and even these he cannot become full master of, for, the complete absence in many instances of real obstacles to be avoided develops a loose and indecisive style, wholly unfit to wrestle successfully with the difficulties of a course designed to bring out the true beauties of the game. One of the most general criticisms of our style is the full swing taken in playing iron shots. What has developed this but unprotected greens? Then the general tendency to play for a pull has doubtless come about from the meadows we are given to drive into from the tee. This criticism is of course very general. We have a number of very fine courses, and a great number that are trapped in a fashion, but before anything in a big way can result a lot of missionary work will have to be done.  If all the golfers of this country could play for a week upon the National Links at Southampton, L. I., they would then comprehend what a game golf is, and would not be satisfied until their courses were rounded out to give the best golf the natural lay of the ground was capable of.
   Golf is the same as everything else in life. It is through the reaction of man upon his environment that development of character comes about, and in golf, it is the course that must either make him a strong and scientific player or develop habits of play which must prove his downfall when he is really called upon to play a difficult shot for which he has had no training. It is not at all necessary that all our courses should be championship tests. But it would be well if each one of them had a few holes at which the golfer would have to call all his resources into play.”
   
    Obviously Behr amended his views later, but it is worth noting he was among the first calling for a more penal approach for American golf architecture. His plea, and others like it, would result in a new American movement in golf design. Donald Ross also got into the act, as seen in this article (written by Jerome Travers) regarding the consequences of Vardon’s criticism (Boston Globe 1/30/1916):
   “Harry Vardon and other experts say that American course have been undertrapped and too sparsely bunkered and that to improve our golf we must add extra hazards and put a further tax upon a poorly played shot…If what Harry Vardon, Donald Ross and others have to say is correct, life for these hereafter will be just one bunker after another—an endless chain effect of earth thrown up and traps cut deeply.”
   “’The object of golf now on’, says Donald Ross, who has laid out 72 American courses, ‘will be toward an even greater science of stroke. Deep traps will be placed down the center, so that the golfer must shoot either to the right or left. To play well a man must have a wide variety of shots. More and more he will be forced to use his head as well as his hands and arms. More and more the golfer will have to have control over the club to insure direction or meet certain trouble.’”
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Melvyn Morrow



 Golfing Topic 10.03.1914  Is The Standard Declining?





Melvyn

BCrosby

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Mike - Interesting article. Do you know who wrote it?

Mac - Two things jump out. There are striking contradictions in the advice British pros were giving. Taylor thinks American courses are too severe. Vardon thinks they are too easy. But both think Americans should get busy and improve their courses. Makes it hard to know what to do.  

Second, there was little dispute at the time that American courses needed to catch up with British courses. The question was how to do that. Turns out there were lots of British architects (plus CBM, Travis and other Americans familiar with UK courses) ready, willing and able to come to the States to show Americans the architectural ropes. Their services were avidly sought and they were welcomed with open arms. Very few defended American courses as superior to British courses in the period 1910 to 1915. American courses circa 1910 or so - with a couple of exceptions like Myopia - were widely seen as not up to the standards of good UK courses.

All that changed by the middle of the1920's.

Bob          
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 12:31:30 PM by BCrosby »

Mike Cirba

Bob,

I'm not sure who the author is...I'll try to find out.

Melvyn,

Very interesting article and almost contrary in some ways to what Vardon wrote in 1901, wouldn't you say?

Mac,

Always enjoy your posts...thanks for sharing.


I think one thing to keep in mind is this early idea that Vardon states very clearly that incongruously, American courses were too hard for the poorer player and too easy for the better one.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 12:19:10 PM by MCirba »

BCrosby

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Mike -

I ask because I hear the voice of Leeds. But there's probably no way to know.

Bob

Mike Cirba

Bob,

I'll go back and see if I can find more about who wrote for that newspaper at that time.   Please also see my revised comments above.

Agree that if it was Leeds, and the familiarity with courses abroad would suggest either hiim or Windeler, we may never be able to find out as he's certainly write anonymously.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 12:24:39 PM by MCirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: Vardon - Strategic vs Penal ***NOW WITH Garden City Changes 1908***
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2011, 05:03:57 PM »
I wasn't sure where to post this August 1908 article, and Joe Bausch may have posted it previously, but I came across it recently and think it's a tremendous description of the evolving strategic thinking in the 1900-1908 timeframe.   The focus on Garden City as one of the first strategic courses is well-described and the explicit message was that amateur golfers like Travis, Leeds, Macdonald, were doin' it for themselves (and their clubs) and leading the charge against the type of courses that had come before them.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 05:05:29 PM by MCirba »

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Vardon - Strategic vs Penal ***NOW WITH Garden City Changes 1908***
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2011, 06:13:44 PM »

Does anyone remember that game, it involved a lot of walking and thinking, had a tendency to Penal but in a strategic way that invigorated the soul as well as the player. The result being that skills was developed and much joy and fun was derived from playing it that it spread throughout the British Isles in the 19th Century then continued to expand  overseas.

Alas today the players are regarded as the greatest that the sport had ever seen, yet their achievements are at least questionable as they need to use the latest technology to play and have massive  assistance from all sorts of information, not least distance.

Ah, yes I remember the name of the game it was once called GOLF and really tested the players.

Anyone think it will come back into vogue again?

Penal must, must retake its place within the design otherwise we strip the designer of some of his arsenal, resulting in the equivalent of a weak and wet handshake of a game which will frustrate all.

Just think you may be given a choice soon by the Professional, he may ask you do you want a game of weak golf or a firm slap around the face with a fresh wet fish – apparently some say there is more satisfaction these day from getting a smack from the fish.

Melvyn