Which is the most storied course in America?

[Tommy Williamsen]

No matter how "storied" is defined for this question (based on historical significance, current prominence, influence, or something other.) I think the contenders can be limited to a short list.

The Country Club
Winged Foot
Shinnecock
Merion
Pine Valley
Oakmont
Pinehurst
Augusta
Pebble Beach
Cypress Point
Riviera

They may be a difference between "most storied course" and "most storied club."

Pine Valley may be the most storied course, not so much about specific stories told about it but about the mystique it holds for golfers.  I would think that Pinhurst #2, Oakmont, Pebble, and Cypress fall into this category.

As for most storied club, it would be difficult to vote against ANGC.  WF, TCC, and Baltusrol fall into this category as well.

The above list, however, is the very short list of contenders.

[JESII]

Not sure how Shinnecock or Cypress fit into this discussion...


Does hosting one round of the Crosby for 40 years, or whatever, mean anything?

[Phil McDade]

A course can be storied for its architecture, or it can be storied for the golf that's been played there, or it can be both, it seems.

Cypress and Pine Valley, really, have not had many significant golf events played there since their founding -- by significant, something that resonates beyond the tiny world of golf nuts.

Baltusrol Lower, which has hosted a ton of USGA events, and TCC in Brookline, seem more storied for the golf than the architecture.

Augusta, Merion, Shinnecock, Oakmont, Riveria, and Pebble seem to have elements of both. (Shinnecock is interesting, because it hosted the second US Open ever played, disappeared from the screen for 100 years, then has returned, and held up amazingly well as a solid test for a major. I'm not too sure too many courses could make that claim; the field is pretty limited.) I'd throw one more into the mix -- Myopia -- which had an early, critical role in establishing the US Open as a premier test of golf (four Opens held there, with very high scores -- it sort of established the notion of the Open being a test of par golf), and played a pretty interesting role in the development of early American golf architecture.

I'd go with a top 10, in order, of:

Merion
Augusta
TCC (tho it does deserve an asterisk, as Pat Mucci points out)
Oakmont
Shinnecock
Pine Valley
Winged Foot
Riveria
Myopia
Pebble

[wsmorrison]

Phil,

The Shinnecock Hills course of 1916 (Macdonald) was so vastly different than the original 1890s course and the 1931 Flynn so different from the Macdonald version that they might just as well have been three different golf courses.

[Phil McDade]

Wayne:

You're correct; I posted that and then immediately realized I'd forgotten the chapter on Shinnecock from Wexford's Missing Links, and the differences that the course has seen over the years. Still, it seems to me a pretty storied course -- maybe because both the underappreciated Flynn and CB had a hand in versions of it!

[wsmorrison]

Agreed, Phil.  Everything today is Flynn, with the possible exception of the 3rd green, though evidence points to that as Flynn as well, though not conclusively.  The subsoils seem different than the other greens and is somewhat problematic.

[Jay Flemma]

I'd have to say Augusta.  The interesting Q is what's second.  Probably Pebble.  Then Winged Foot.  Then Oakmont.

[JESII]

Jay,

How do you justify Pebble ahead of Merion?

[redanman]

ANGC

Not even close

The Country Club second?

[JESII]

W.

With that question mark, are you suggesting or question TCC as #2?

[Garland Bayley]

Merion East, and not because CB Macdonald had a hand in designing it....
...

I bet if you ask Craig Sweat's buddies out in Missoula, MT, they will never have heard of Merion. You can be sure they have heard of Pebble Beach and Augusta National; and probably Pinehurst.

[JESII]

Merion East, and not because CB Macdonald had a hand in designing it....
...

I bet if you ask Craig Sweat's buddies out in Missoula, MT, they will never have heard of Merion. You can be sure they have heard of Pebble Beach and Augusta National; and probably Pinehurst.

Maybe, but what could they tell you about them?

[Garland Bayley]

Where is George Pazin when you need him? From the Oakmont website.

Few venues in the world of golf have the championship tradition of Oakmont. Introduced in 1903 by designer Henry Fownes, Oakmont Country Club has hosted more major Championships than any other course in the U.S., including seven United States Opens, five U.S. Amateurs, three PGA Championships, and one U.S. Women’s Open.

Emphasis added.

[Garland Bayley]

Merion East, and not because CB Macdonald had a hand in designing it....
...

I bet if you ask Craig Sweat's buddies out in Missoula, MT, they will never have heard of Merion. You can be sure they have heard of Pebble Beach and Augusta National; and probably Pinehurst.

Maybe, but what could they tell you about them?

Probably mostly US Open and Masters stuff.

[Phil McDade]

Pinehurst never hosted a professional major prior to 1999. Pebble's first professional major was in 1972.

I don't know Mr. Sweat's buddies, but I'm guessing their recollections of Pebble, Pinehurst and Augusta come from either having played the courses, or having seen them/visited them when hosting majors, or having watched some re-runs on the Golf Channel. Which -- as a percentage of the US population -- puts them in pretty small company.

Much, much smaller company than those across the country in 1930 who were aware, took notice, and reveled in Jones' triumph at Merion.

"Storied" implies (in fact, is defined as) having some historic importance of some significance. Pinehurst, although Ross' defining course, has little in the way of historic golf being played there. Pebble has a bit more, but not nearly as much as Merion. Merion East surely holds its own from an architectural standpoint to Pebble and Pinehurst; others might argue it exceeds those two.

Augusta vs. Merion is a fair debate; I'd still take Merion, but I'd concede it's a close argument.

[Garland Bayley]

...Pinehurst, although Ross' defining course, has little in the way of historic golf being played there....
Augusta vs. Merion is a fair debate; I'd still take Merion, but I'd concede it's a close argument.

Are you kidding me? ANGC gets its "storied" history, because of the quirk of Arnold picking it for the grand slam. Until that time its little invitational probably had no more significance than the North and South at Pinehurst or the Western in Chicago.

Craig Sweat's friends are perhaps going to be aware they would be able to play at Pinehurst if they ponied up the money. Merion is available to a minute number of golfers, and for the most part it is that minute number of golfers that are going to recognize that anything of importance happened. there. If told about Merion, as soon as Craig's friends learn Merion is private exclusive, it will be forgotten immediately!

[Phil McDade]

So, public access is a criteria for assessing the value of a course's "storied"-ness? Hmmmm, odd, that reasoning.

More people, I'm pretty sure, will visit Las Vegas this year than Gettysburg. I'm pretty sure I know which one has a more "storied" place in our country's history.

Augusta has a pretty important place for, among others, these three reasons: 1) it established Palmer as a national sporting, not just golfing, icon; 2) it's where the game's most dominant player in his era dominated the most, and had his most stirring major win in '86; and 3) it launched Tiger in '97, with reverberations well beyond the game of golf.

It also had a few decent golfers -- Nelson, Snead and Hogan among them -- win the Masters before 1958.

[Garland Bayley]

So, public access is a criteria for assessing the value of a course's "storied"-ness? Hmmmm, odd, that reasoning.
...

Of course the thing I am including in my definition of storied is the breadth of knowledge of the stories.

Public access is not a criteria for assessing the value of a course's "storied"-ness? Public access makes the likes of Craig's friends pay more attention and remember, thereby leading to the stories being more widely known.

[Sam Morrow]

I would say Augusta. As for Baltusrol I wonder how many USGA events it would have hosted if not for it's proximity to the USGA.

[redanman]

W.
With that question mark, are you suggesting or question TCC as #2?

Birthplace of the American Champion as far as the world was concerned.  And a lot of Flynn, of course.

[wsmorrison]

Sam,

Nice supposition!

"The interesting Q is what's second.  Probably Pebble.  Then Winged Foot.  Then Oakmont."

Jay F,

What is your reasoning for selecting the courses in the order you did?  What about Merion, The Country Club and Shinnecock Hills?  I guess they are your also-rans.

[Phil McDade]

So, public access is a criteria for assessing the value of a course's "storied"-ness? Hmmmm, odd, that reasoning.
...

Of course the thing I am including in my definition of storied is the breadth of knowledge of the stories.

Public access is not a criteria for assessing the value of a course's "storied"-ness? Public access makes the likes of Craig's friends pay more attention and remember, thereby leading to the stories being more widely known.

Well, yes, there are always those who think what is most popular is the most important thing to learn about, or to know, or to tell their friends about.

More people read John Grisham than Fyodor Dostoyevsky. I know which one I want high school teachers to have their college-bound students read and learn about (gratuitous insert here -- as a local school board member, I actually care about the answer...)

[Garland Bayley]

So, public access is a criteria for assessing the value of a course's "storied"-ness? Hmmmm, odd, that reasoning.
...

Of course the thing I am including in my definition of storied is the breadth of knowledge of the stories.

Public access is not a criteria for assessing the value of a course's "storied"-ness? Public access makes the likes of Craig's friends pay more attention and remember, thereby leading to the stories being more widely known.

Well, yes, there are always those who think what is most popular is the most important thing to learn about, or to know, or to tell their friends about.

More people read John Grisham than Fyodor Dostoyevsky. I know which one I want high school teachers to have their college-bound students read and learn about (gratuitous insert here -- as a local school board member, I actually care about the answer...)

Nobody said anything about popular. Besides maybe this Dostoyevsky character would be more popular if he would get the right publicist.  

[Anthony Gray]

  BUMP