[Anthony Gray]

     C B Macdonald would have went to school in the US.

    Anthony

[Ken Moum]

     C B Macdonald would have went to school in the US.

    Anthony

Someone else would have been the Evangelist of Golf.

K

[Anthony Gray]

     C B Macdonald would have went to school in the US.

    Anthony

Someone else would have been the Evangelist of Golf.

K

   How long would it have taken?

    Anthony

[Tom_Doak]

Donald Ross still would have been here, and all his compatriots.  But, I don't know who would have stepped up and built something like The National, and inspired others to do the same.  So there might be TWO reasons there would never have been an Old Macdonald.

[Ken Moum]

     C B Macdonald would have went to school in the US.

    Anthony

Someone else would have been the Evangelist of Golf.

K

   How long would it have taken?

    Anthony

Aye, there's the rub....

And I agree w/ Doak about Macdonald's impact on architecture.

I have often wondered if his impact on the rest of golf in America might even be greater.  Didn't his protestations about other "national championships" cause the creation of the USGA in 1895. 

What if one of those other events had become THE national championship?

K

[TEPaul]

TomD:

You know, it's true that what Macdonald did with his National and his massive promotion of what it could mean for the future of American architecture really truly was a remarkable occurence and probably without the remotest comparison.

Certainly the likes of Leeds, Emmet, Travis, Fownses, Crump, Wilson, Flynn, Ross, Tillinghast, Thomas, Colt, Alison, Mackenzie et al were doing some really good work over here in that era but not a one of them ever tried to put themselves on a soapbox or pedestal with anything they did like Charlie did with NGLA.

For that they all and we all must thank him!

But you know, TomD, I sort of feel for the boys from the UK because Charlie essentially ripped off the best of what they had and brought it over here and promoted it as his own and himself as the savior of GCA. Personally, if I were a Scot like say a Melvyn Hunter Morrow I would demand that Macdonald and/or even America should pay the other side back for that thievry with a ton of compounded interest to boot due over the last century or so. Either that or the likes of the Redans, Biarritzes, Edens, Alps, Bottles, Longs, Roads et al should be foreclosed on by the UK and repatriated back to where they originally came from.

But maybe the UK deserved to be ripped off like that by Charlie and America----God knows the UK sure did rip off a ton of the antiquities of the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians et al and take it home with them in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries!

[Tom_Doak]

Tom P:

I don't think the Scots could get a big judgment against Macdonald for profiting off their knowledge, considering he never charged a dime for designing any golf course, and I doubt he got rich off founding The National.

[TEPaul]

TomD:

Don't you believe it. There are ways and then there are ways. Do not doubt that Charlie was arguably one of the finest networkers ever known and can you really doubt how much he used golf to do it? Do you really think it was just a coincidence that CBM  populated his club with some of the richest people and biggest businessmen extant including so many of Wall Street's financiers, and the other clubs he belonged to and did architecture for free were all basically the same crowd? Do you know what Charlie actually did for a living?    

[DMoriarty]

Tom P:

I don't think the Scots could get a big judgment against Macdonald for profiting off their knowledge, considering he never charged a dime for designing any golf course, and I doubt he got rich off founding The National.

Plus CBM never "promoted it as his own" but rather openly credited the overseas influence.  That was largely the point of the endeavor.

To pretend that CBM's and NGLA's success with golf course architecture was more due to promotion than substance does a terrible disservice to the history of golf course design.   Promotion and publicity were part of it, but there was substance there to back it up and that substance was revolutionary for golf course design in the States.

TEPaul, do you know what CBM did for a living?  

[Adam Clayman]

Anthony, How about if he didn't learn the finer points from Old Tom?

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul, do you know what CBM did for a living?"


Of course I do and particularly after he moved from Chicago to New York in 1900.

And yes of course real architectural substance was certainly always there with NGLA, and with a model that had never been used before, at least not that comprehensively and certainly not that brilliantly. It is always worth noting with NGLA that the model holes that CBM used as his core "classic" time-tested holes were not apparently those that may have been his favorites or his personal selections. They came from well known British newspaper competition. That too was brilliant on CBM's part because he had a poll backing to point to with them. I've frankly never really known anyone with even a passing interest in the history of golf or golf architecture who denied that NGLA was of real architectural substance, certainly back then. But promotion was also part of the theme of its architecture and certainly compared to the other prominent clubs and courses before it, most notably Myopia, and just after it.  

[Peter Pallotta]

Anthony - Well, since this is a hypothetical question I'll venture a hypothetical answer:

I think if CBM went to school in America, he would STILL have designed NGLA, and would still have called it NGLA, and it would still have had the import and impact it did.  

The course might NOT be exactly like the one we know of today, but I think that's not so important.  It was the IDEA of NGLA that was important.

And it was not primarily what he SAW that dictated the design of NGLA, it was his INTENTION - it was the notion of the IDEAL golf course, it was the goal of manifesting the TRUE SPIRIT of the game.

I think it might've taken him a few more years , but I think he would've looked at the courses in America and Canada that Ross and Colt and Leeds and others designed...and I think he would've eventually SEEN and UNDERSTOOD the fundamental principles of great architecture that were being manifested in the best of their work....

and then I think that, since he still would've had the same CHARACTER as the CBM we know, he would start talking about and promoting and demanding the VERY BEST...

and maybe in 1915 or so, NGLA would've been there.

Peter

Happy Thanksgiving to you all

    

[David_Elvins]

     C B Macdonald would have went to school in the US.

His grammar would have turned out worse. 

[John Mayhugh]

That is too scary a thought to ponder, though an interesting one. 

I'm thankful that he didn't as my favorite classic and modern courses would have to change.

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