[Bradley Anderson]

I agree with Patrick that those deflection spines strongly suggest that the area before the swale was not intended for putting but as a landing zone for running the ball through the swale.

The Biarritz is always the longest one shotter in the series - a "full drive hole". All of them had only one tee set at 190 - how many guys were flying the ball that far with hickories and balata balls back then? Not too many. Clearly that area in front of the swale was for accepting a low running shot to run through the green. The spines and the flanking bukers were there to keep a sloppy shot from getting it done.



I played Camargo this fall and we stood over the deflection spines on the 8th hole Biarritz. How nerdy is that?   They are barely visible but definitely there. I think over time these features were lost from the weight of tractor drawn mowers pushing down (1950's) and from core aeration removing soil.  

[George_Bahto]

Tom Paul: Have you ever seen any of these original deflection mounds in the area before the swales?

There are very , very few of them left. I think a lot of them were lost/lowered by mowers scalping them while cutting the “fairway” area.

They were usually set on a slight diagonal and I believe these were what Macdonald was referring to when he spoke of "hog-back" when describing Biarritz holes.

[Bradley Anderson]

Bradley:

As to cinders under greens from Macdonald/Raynor, the only examples I know of are those few greens at Shinnecock that were reused by Flynn when he did his version of Shinnecock that uses most of the same land from the previous Macdonald/Raynor Shinnecock.

Tom,

I have gone out with the superintendent from a Raynor course that was built right at the end of his career and we found cinder layers in the putting surface. But none were found in the front half of the Biarritz hole.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1910/ag52g.pdf

The above link, from 1910, is the earliest reference I have found to the use of cinders in putting green construction.

[Jim_Kennedy]

What's really 'comforting' to know is that the only person who has ever posted a plan showing the deflection mounds is not a 'poser'.

[TEPaul]

Who drew that plan of the Westhampton Oneck biarritz?

[George_Bahto]

I have nearly the entire set of blueprints for the greens for the Westhamton Oneck Course ......

let's see ................................ does that say Whigham???

No!  it clearly says    Chas. H. Banks
                             Golf Architect

what do you think? I made it up?

[Jim_Kennedy]

As mentioned, Devereux Emmet wrote this in 1913:

"The ninth (Piping Rock) is a very uncommon hole. I have never seen one like it. There are two large greens, one beyond the other, with a hollow between them and serious trouble on either side in the shape of bunkers. It must be 220 yards (I speak from memory) from the tee to the center of the farthest green. It is slightly down hill, so that one can see exactly what there is to do. It will take a fine cleek shot or a difficult drive with a wooden club by a second class player, as the gulley which separates the two greens must be run through at the end of the shot. This is one of the only good cleek holes I have ever seen. There is a slight upward slope beyond the green so that there may be no fear of hitting the ball too hard---the difficulty is to get there."

....and in 1919 Oswald G. Kirkby wrote:

Perhaps the best hole is the ninth. I have never seen one like it. Roughly it must be over two hundred yards long.From the tee one looks away to find two greens, one beyond the other, with a hollow between them and bunkers looming on either side. It instantly impresses you as being a cleek shot. In fact, it is one of the few good cleek holes that I know. The roll of the land is slightly downhill, and that means an excellent cleek shot or a difficult drive by a second class player, as the gully which separates the two greens must be run through at the end of the shot. Beyond the green there is a slight upward slope, so that there may be no fear of hitting the ball hard; in fact, the difficulty is to get there. I consider it a splendid hole, because it calls for a perfect shot with the dreaded cleek

Both men called the front section a 'green', yet neither man even hints that the front section was used as a putting green. Their individual critiques  are very similar, so much so that both men use the exact same wording to state "....the gulley which separates the two greens must be run through at the end of the shot",  and they both note that "the difficulty is to get there", i.e, the back, where the putting green lay.

[Jim Nugent]

Jim, my guess is that Kirby lifted what Emmet wrote.   

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jim,
I had the same impression, but even though Kirkby may have been a plagiarist he was also an accomplished player, and saw the 'play' of the hole in a similar light as Emmet.

In 1915 CBM wrote this about Lido’s version:

"The eighth hole, 220 yards, is a one-shot brassie or drive and will be known as the Biarritz hole, an improvement on the ninth at Piping Rock".

It seems to me that not one of these three guys contemplated anything less that a full shot to the back green in their day, not one of them mentions a yardage under 220.   

[Jim_Kennedy]

This topic is  familiar with Whigham’s account of  PR’s version, here’s a snippet from it:

"There is a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards which is new to this country........Under normal conditions the hole has to be played with what is now known as the push shot, a low ball with plenty of run, which will land short of the dip and run through it on to the green.


Also, William Ellis in 1925, on Yale’s version:
"The green is behind a deep turf trench which is nearly as wide as the green itself………. the psychology of the play is to 'let out' on the tee shot…… The correct manner is to carry to the near edge of the trench and roll up and onto the green. The appearance and  reappearance of the ball lends a fascination to the play."


I can't find an accounting of the hole that talks about using the front section as a putting surface, not even Emmet's.

[TEPaul]

Emmet's article sure does say the 9th at Piping Rock had one green beyond another. If they never pinned the front section the only reason I could see Emmet saying that is that the course had just opened when he wrote that article (1913) and maybe the front fairway section just looked like greenspace to him because it is flanked on either side by bunkers as is the actual greenspace beyond the swale.

All I can tell you is it never was greenspace from about 1950 on because I remember the fairway before the swale from about then.


GeorgieB:

On that blueprint drawing of the biarritz at Westhampton's Oneck course are there any elevations on those lines that appear to be contour lines? Also, who put that text on that blueprint-looking drawing?

[Jim_Kennedy]

TEPaul,
I cannot find any reference from the time period that mentions the front area as putting green. Emmet calls it a green, but even he (and in every other account I've seen) mentions only one way to attack the hole:  play a Brassie or Driver through the swale to the putting green, which happens to be the one in back.

[TEPaul]

Jim:

Despite what Emmet said in that 1913 article on Piping Rock's 9th hole about two greens (one behind the other), I have also never seen a single reference of the section before the swale on any Macdonald/Raynor Biarritz ever being used originally as greenspace or for a hole location and I have never seen a single photograph of such a thing from back then. I have certainly seen it done but only in relatively recent times. I know when The Creek Club transitioned theirs and I know when Fox Chapel transitioned theirs, although I'm not clear when Yale did, and as I mentioned above for the last sixty years at least Piping Rock's has been fairway area. Personally, I might say the thought may've at least occured to Macdonald and Raynor but I've just never seen any indication that such a thing was actually done back then or originally by either of them.

[Bradley Anderson]

Jim:

Despite what Emmet said in that 1913 article on Piping Rock's 9th hole about two greens (one behind the other), I have also never seen a single reference of the section before the swale on any Macdonald/Raynor Biarritz ever being used originally as greenspace or for a hole location and I have never seen a single photograph of such a thing from back then. I have certainly seen it done but only in relatively recent times. I know when The Creek Club transitioned theirs and I know when Fox Chapel transitioned theirs, although I'm not clear when Yale did, and as I mentioned above for the last sixty years at least Piping Rock's has been fairway area. Personally, I might say the thought may've at least occured to Macdonald and Raynor but I've just never seen any indication that such a thing was actually done back then or originally by either of them.

Tom,

All that would have to happen for Emmet's statement to be accurate is for that whole front area to be cut with a greensmower. He never said that there was a cup cut in the front, he just refers to the area in front of the swale as "green". And it probably was cut with a greensmower, although perhaps with not the same frequency as the back half.

[George_Bahto]

"GeorgieB:

On that blueprint drawing of the biarritz at Westhampton's Oneck course are there any elevations on those lines that appear to be contour lines? Also, who put that text on that blueprint-looking drawing? "



the Banks Oneck (WHamp) blueprints do have elevations on them - the scale is 1" to 20'

they also show the elevation and positions of the green's associated bunkering - it was a great find (unfortunately there is no Redan blueprint) (booooooooooo) - I've never seen a set of these at any place else

I wrote the text on that particlular drawing when i posted about a year ago - there for clarification of text I had put into a thread

[Jim_Kennedy]

These look like they could be the same type of deflection spines that are shown in the blueprint that George posted.

[TEPaul]

"the Banks Oneck (WHamp) blueprints do have elevations on them - the scale is 1" to 20'"


Georgie:

So what kind of contour elevations are we talking about on the 'deflection spines' on that Banks biarritz on the Westhampton Oneck cours?.


Jim:

That's true, you can see them on that early photo and you can still see them on the ground. If you hit the ball wide of one of those things the ball will usually get in one of the side bunkers if it keeps on trucking through the swale but they are pretty far apart and pretty far left and right on a wide fairway area for a par 3 hole. They also aren't exactly elongated spines (like the lines on the Banks Oneck Biarritz), they are more like elongated mounds at the far end of the fairway area before the swale.

[George_Bahto]

"So what kind of contour elevations are we talking about on the 'deflection spines' on that Banks biarritz on the Westhampton Oneck cours?."

TP: there are no elevations figures on the spines themselves - just on either side of them (they are the same elevation for the ground is fairly level to slightly tilted)

The mounds on the Knoll's 13th vary from about 8" to about less than a foot. They were never altered.

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