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RJ_Daley

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Re:Culver Academies course profile is posted...
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2006, 10:12:54 PM »
I'm aware that Culver has turned out a number of excellent Hockey prospects in the last 20+ years.  Can anyone say if any notable golfers other than Bob have been grads there?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

T_MacWood

Re:Culver Academies course profile is posted...
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2006, 10:29:22 PM »
I'm not sure what the rational is to build a new nine, why not just restore the original nine (it wouldn't be too difficult)? There's something appealing to me about a great nine...there are plenty of examples of a great old nine with a not quite great new nine.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2006, 10:40:56 PM by Tom MacWood »

Dan Moore

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Re:Culver Academies course profile is posted...
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2006, 11:38:29 PM »
Tom,

The rationale that justifies it for me is based on the fact Langford designed more than 9 holes there, assuming what would be built would be based on his plans.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Adam Clayman

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Re:Culver Academies course profile is posted...
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2006, 12:01:04 AM »
Tom, If the school did build it, they would benefit greatly in another 80 years time. For one, There will be alot more people, even in Indiana. ;)

 The costs to build would be long sunk, but the opportnity for cash flow would still be there. They could build it with love and respect for one of Americas unsung, yet highly influential, GCA's. Proving the definition of classic, is rarely found in the contemporary mindsets.

Besides...
 
What school couldn't stand to make a long-term profit, in perpetuity off a labor of love?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

BCrosby

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Re:Culver Academies course profile is posted...
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2006, 11:22:30 AM »
I forgot to mention that Tony Mayfield is the current golf coach at Culver. He was captain of the golf team my freshman year and was a good player.  I saw him at a Culver event in Atlanta several months ago and we had a long talk about the course.

If people are in the area, you might contact Tony for access. I do not know what restrictions might apply. I only ask that you remind him of the historical significance of the course and the hidden jewel that Culver has. Creating a little buzz would be terrific.

The economics of a restoration and/or expansion to 18 holes are unclear to me. Lake Maxinkuckee is a summer resort for families from Chicago, Indie and other towns in the area. Those folks would be a source of revenue in the summer.  In other seasons there aren't many people around. The town of Culver is tiny, as are the surrounding towns. So I wouldn't think there would be a lot of walk up business for most of the year.

Nonetheless, it is a special course that merits much more attention than it has gotten. As is evident to anyone who has played it, it is maintained on a shoestring budget. Restoring the current nine holes is the least difficult problem. The harder one will be getting The Academy to allocate money to maintain the course after a restoration. Which is why some projection of increased walk-up business would be helpful.

Bob

T.J. Sturges

Re:Culver Academies course profile is posted...
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2006, 11:42:50 AM »
Bob,

I agree with you on the greatest challenge being the maintenance of the course.  Ran and I were told the school has a 2 person grounds maintenance crew who oversee the school grounds as well as the golf course.  If they spend a couple of hundred grand to restore the course, they would need to hire a full time course supt. and he would need one or two crew members dedicated solely to him (or her).  This would come with a cost of about 80-100k per year.  I fear this may be a stumbling block.

As far as building more of the holes, I think 9 is the answer.  With golf taking too much time (in this country) as it is, wouldn't more people find the appeal of a 9 hole round?  Couldn't this be a fulcrum to increase popularity in our great game?  4 hour golf experiences are a buzz kill.

TS

Dan Moore

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Re:Culver Academies course profile is posted...
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2007, 05:13:17 PM »
I recently had the opportunity to stop at Culver Academies and play their nine hole Langford Moreau course.  I have now played around 10 Langford Moreau courses and studied many others.  With many of L/M's courses in the Chicago area renovated beyond recognition it is a joy to find unaltered examples of their work even if in a state of benign neglect.  



Ran's review does an excellent job of capturing the essence of the course and L/M's design.  This is the best land I have seen for a L/M course.  Ran nailed it when he described the land as rambunctious.  Langford and Moreau's design which took full advantage of such land led to an exhilarating golf experience.  The hole numbers I played were completely different from those cited by Ran.  Hole number 1 (#5 in Ran’s review) was a par 5 heading north from the clubhouse and Hole 6 (Hole #1 in Ran’s review) was another par 5 heading south from the clubhouse.  To avoid confusion I will use Ran’s hole numbers.



Rather than try to review the course (which Ran has already done so well) I will compare it to other L/M designs pointing out common motifs and design riffs that L/M used in a variety of different ways on their courses.  

Hole #1

As this hole demonstrates, L/M had an affinity for blindness, semi-blindness and short par 5's.   Starting from an elevated tee with views of Lake Maxinkuckee, the round starts with a drive across a wide valley.  As shown in the photo, a  blind second follows.  Note the large bunker on the left that shields the left side approach.  


A little further up the fairway the player is given a little peek of the green.  


The strategically placed bunker on the left pointed out above protects the direct route to the hole, a ramp down this steep slope to the green.  Very dramatic land used to great effect.


Hole #2

Ran describes the 2nd as a Redan.  As designers of highly original short holes did L/M also resort to template holes of MacDonald and Raynor?  Giving credence to this theory,  several courses there are holes that a very similar to the typical Raynor “Short Hole.”

Raynors “Short” at Mountain Lake (Kyle Harris Photo)


Langford’s “Short” at Spring Valley #3 (Hole is missing bunkers that would wrap around the left side of the green.)


Many cite holes such as Lawsonia’s  4th and 12th and Culver’s 2nd as medium length par 3's that exhibit Redan like characteristics.  However, I don’t see a slavish approach to the redan template in these L/M holes.  I think one is hard pressed to call either hole at Lawsonia a Redan.  I’m also not sure Culver’s 2nd was intended to be a Redan.  Its hard to tell given the extent of lost green.  It does have the slight mounding to the right, but the original green seems to have been more oval than the typical Redan.  

Nonetheless #2 is a terrific hole with a honest mid-iron shot which needs to carry the valley and avoid the frighteningly deep fronting bunker on the left.  Even more exciting are the deep grass bunkers behind the green.  In some respects Culver’s 2nd reminded me more of Spring Valley’s 7th, a stunning little par 3 traversing from one ridge to another.  

Culver #2


Spring Valley #7 (Hole is missing large bunkers left and right)


Hole#3

Another strong par 3 negotiating the valley in the opposite direction of the 2nd.  The hole features two sets of tees to allow it to played from 140 and 188 when making two loops around the course.  Imagine my surprise upon seeing this green to see a shrunken, yet identical version of one of the most distinctive greens at Lawsonia, the severely two-tiered 6th.   Ran’s picture shows the Culver green much better than mine.  The photos do not show the extent of the similarity, it is uncanny.

Culver #2


Lawsonia #6


Hole #3

One of Culver’s best holes that takes maximum advantage of the rugged depression that skirts the entire left side of the hole.  Did L/M enhance the depression by using this the area to obtain their fill.  Did they use a similar technique at Lawsonia in the valley fronting the 11th tee.  

Waste Area on Culver’s 4th (Ran’s Photo)


Lawsonia’s 11th
 

Another aspect of #4 is the strategic use of a solitary tree.  The outside of the dogleg, the safer and flatter right side of the fairway, is defended by a lone tree in the 1951 aerial.  Play safe to the right of the tree and you risk running through the fairway and being blocked out by the tree.  Play left of the tree and a slight pull brings the depression on the left into play.  L/M  also used trees strategically on the 1st and 11th at Butterfield and most notably on the 13th at Lawsonia.  

Culver's 4th with the tree guarding the right side of the fairway.  There are now several trees there forming a barrier to the driving range. (Ran's photo)


Butterfield’s 1st.  Originally only the tree defended the fairway; the bunker was added later.


Butterfields 11th viewed from behind.  Hit over the oak on this par 3.


Lawsonia’s 13th.  Lone tree at 180 yds out on the 560 par 5.  Note the old tree is dying and a replacement has already been planted.



Hole# 5

Another short, rolling par 5.  On par 5s in particular L/M liked to use crests of hills to hide the next shot.  The 9th at Lawsonia and 4th at Spring Valley both exhibit this trait.  The green is also severely sloped from back to front much like the 6 ft drop on the 17th at Spring Valley.  Even at very slow green speeds my ball rolled 20 feet down hill when I hit some putts on the left side of the green.  

Only the roof of a building that didn’t exist when the course was built shows the way for the 2nd shot.


The view from over the crest of the hill.




Thoughts on the other 4 holes and the greens at Culver to come.  
« Last Edit: May 27, 2007, 03:20:02 PM by Dan Moore »
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Ron Kern

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Re:Culver Academies course profile is posted...
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2007, 07:04:40 PM »
I won a high school golf tournament on Culver's course in 1976.  Great course - very fond memories.

KBanks

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Re:Culver Academies course profile is posted...
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2007, 08:46:28 PM »
I missed this thread at the time it came out, and likewise remember Culver well from high school golf matches. It is really memorable, dramatic terrain.

Isn't there a Culver connection to Pete Dye?

Ken

Eric_Terhorst

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Re:Culver Academies course profile is posted...
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2007, 05:52:53 PM »
Dan,

Thanks for posting all these pics, which I think clearly illustrate the fantastic creativity of L-M--richly deserved attention!  See also my comments on the "Tom Doak respect for par 5s" thread.  

The undulating 1st at Culver, and the 13th at Lawsonia are great examples of how they liked to use naturally wavey land to create fun, interesting golf holes.  

I forget, have you been to Harrison Hills yet?  There are some more interesting holes on similar land there. Road trip!


Kyle Harris

Re:Culver Academies course profile is posted...
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2007, 06:10:12 PM »
Hello Dan,

Great photos, and that one of Mountain Lake looks familiar ;-)

I should let everyone know that the short at Mountain Lake was actually built by Charles Banks after Raynor's death. Banks also added the island tee on the current 8th hole - extending it to a par 5 to what was the ninth green. Originally, 8-9 at Mountain Lake played as two shorter par 4s, but now play par 5-3.

Jim Bearden

Re:Culver Academies course profile is posted...
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2007, 06:27:19 PM »
Went to summer camp but never played the photos are wonderfull.

Dan Moore

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Re:Culver Academies course profile is posted...
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2007, 08:05:48 AM »
Kyle,

Thanks for the info.  Is that your photo.  I'm pretty sure I copied it from someone's post on here, just don't remember whose.  Langford and Moreau also built a similar looking island tee at Spring Valley.  Wonder to what extent their paths crossed?  

Eric,

HH is on the list for this year for sure.  

The rest of Culver later today.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Dan Moore

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Re:Culver Academies course profile is posted...
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2007, 08:11:52 AM »
Hole 6

Moving on to the 6th hole one sees L/Ms typical approach to a hole that turns, a graceful bend with the land.  Perhaps what makes this look so natural is the very early start of the left to right turn highlighted by fairway bunkers short and wide of the landing area.  Another aspect of this hole that is typical L/M is the hardy bunkering behind the green.  This probably harkens back to a day when this was a longish par 4 requiring a long 2nd shot which in the hard conditions typical in a MW summer would have a greater chance of running through the green.  

6 Viewed from near the 5th green


6 Showing bunkers short of the landing area


Large bunkers behind the green


Continuation of same bunker


Hole 7

Ran parenthetically labels this the 16th hole in his review so I am assuming this was intended as the 16th hole in the 18 layout.   In his early writings Langford said the 16th should provide a tough challenge at the time when a match has heated up near the finish.  This philosophy is also seen in the 16th holes at Lawsonia and Spring Valley which are also long testing par 4's.

From the tee of the right to left hole one is confronted with a series of bunkers flanking the inside of the dogleg.  Like many L/M bunkers these set at 185 yards out, well short of the landing area.  However from the tee they look almost identical though smaller in scale to the series of bunkers on the left of the par 5 13th hole at Lawsonia.  The bunkers at Lawsonia are deeper and much more in play presenting a cape like strategy on the drive.  Lawsonia shows a refinement and improvement of this concept in the 7-8 years since Culver was designed.  In each case the route beyond the bunkers is also protected by a tree or trees on the left.  

Culver


Lawsonia


Then the slightly uphill 2nd shot with a bunker on the right


Was also used for the 2nd shot on left to right par 4 of similar length at Spring Valley


Hole 8

Another par 3.  This looks somewhat similar to the 11th at Spring Valley with deep bunkers short left and on the right and somewhat narrower than normal green.  The hole at Culver offers an interesting area that could be reclaimed in the front.

Culver


Spring Valley


This drawing of SV # 11 shows a very similar concept.  On the ground the green is more narrow than on the drawing and has an area at the front that needs to be recaptured much like that at Culver.


Hole 9

From the tee on yet another short par 5 a favorite technique is used. A series of deep bunkers are built just at the point where the fairway starts at the crest of a small hill.  The bunkers hide the landing area from view.  This technique can be found at the 2nd at Lawsonia and 18th at Spring Valley.

Culver


Spring Valley 18th


Lawsonia 2nd


Lawsonia 2nd view from between the mounds


Here is a view of the second shot.  This would be a much more fearsome shot with restored bunkers and added length that would place them in the landing zone of the 2nd shot.  Even from a pretty severe downhill lie it was easy to blow the 2nd shot well past the bunkers at 100 or so yards from the green rendering much of the original strategy of this hole antiquated.  



And finally a view from behind the green on 9 showing the use of contours. Behind the 9th green is the only remaining sand on the course which today is probably there so it can be used as a practice bunker for the school golf team.  




Culver is a particularly well preserved example of Langford Moreau’s architecture.  Everything that was once there is still recoverable in very close to its original form.  The greens more than anything need a lot of work.  Not only have they shrunk significantly, but are very soft, spongy and slow, and as a result do not play anywhere near how they were intended.  Many of the best contours are now out of play.  In addition there appears to be room on most holes to add some length to bring original hole strategies back into play.

Culver is a prime candidate for a restoration be it 9 holes or also building the other 9 for a full 18.  Assuming the school has the resources to restore the existing 9 and build the new 9 (which I am told is not out of the question) would a restored course be sustainable if opened for limited public play that would be sufficient to cover the costs of a dedicated grounds crew that could properly maintain the course.  If that is feasible then a restoration of a classic Langford and Moreau gem would not be out of the question.    



"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Tom Roewer

Re:Culver Academies course profile is posted...
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2007, 09:21:47 AM »
Hello Dan,

Great photos, and that one of Mountain Lake looks familiar ;-)

I should let everyone know that the short at Mountain Lake was actually built by Charles Banks after Raynor's death. Banks also added the island tee on the current 8th hole - extending it to a par 5 to what was the ninth green. Originally, 8-9 at Mountain Lake played as two shorter par 4s, but now play par 5-3.

Kyle: Raynor's first routing for 18 holes was changed before construction to 9 holes.  When this happened he converted 16,17 and 18 into 7,8 and 9. "The 6th was then a long dogleg that now comprises both the sixth and seventh holes."  Later (1929) I find both the previous and following in MOUNTAIN LAKE by John Caldwell - "the shoreline of the lake was altered on number nine and the green was also enlarged.  To insure that this work was done exactly as he wished, Banks constructed a kodel of the entire area and sent it to Lindermanin addition to the usual sketches and drawings."  So exactly when was #9 a par four in play, and not SHORT?

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Culver Academies course profile is posted...
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2010, 05:20:34 PM »
After a $21 dollar 18 hole round at Mystic Hills this morning, I stopped by the nearby Culver Academy Course to see if there was any chance of taking a look at the course.  The gentlemen who appeared to be running the golf program for the Culver Summer Camp not only let me play all 9 holes for the nominal charge of $0, he went out of his way to give me some tips on playing a few of the holes.

This place defines a hidden treasure.  It felt like wandering through an abandoned house, one where the original furniture had been carefully covered and a fine layer of dust lay on every surface.  I know there's been some talk of restoring the bunkering and original greens, changing the watering and mowing regimes and even building an additional nine.  Does anyone know if there's been any movement on this front?

By the way, Mystic Hills was a ton of fun to play as well, and 27 holes for $21 puts the general Culver area at the top of the list for affordable golf.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 05:22:31 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Adam Clayman

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Re: Culver Academies course profile is posted...
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2010, 08:27:23 AM »
On my recent travels I saw two L&M courses. Happy Hollow and Wakonda Club. Both had very little L&M remaining. Although WC still had many features on the ground but all or most were too far into the trees. I met the super John Stemme who graciously gave me an original drawing of all 27 holes. The job number listed was 98 and from 1922. Roger Ruelwich did the modernizing under the direction of a long time member local lawyer with ties to the USGA. The diagram is amazing in it's detail and the original features look too delicious for this novice to critique.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

George Freeman

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Re: Culver Academies course profile is posted...
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2011, 10:49:55 AM »
Does anyone know if there has been any progress on a potential green reclamation at Culver?  This little gem looks really cool...
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

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