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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2011, 02:31:44 PM »
Barney,

Me a rater? Now that is funny.  Where have you been?
_______________________________________________

Here is a link to a thread started by Jim Engh in which some of us were accused of the same thing Kalen is accusing us of here.    While this thread did get sidetracked by the old Melvyn carts debate, I don't recall any disrespect for Mr. Engh.  

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41505.0.html

________________________________________

No need to take Kalen's word for it on the "gig" being "up" for me.  Read the threads.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2011, 02:36:24 PM »
JK: I am going to sidetrack this thread for a moment:  I played Vista Verde last week with my son - it was in fantastic condition and one of the great bargains in the golf world.  Thankfully they never built the houses although I was told that the developer has sold Tonto Verde to the members and is going to move over to Vista Verde.  Now if they could only get rid of those gas carts.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2011, 02:46:50 PM »
...destroyed is apropoa.


Is this some sort of veiled criticism of their turf cultivation practices?

Just didn't want you to think this line went completely unnoticed.Really good.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2011, 03:05:02 PM »
David,

The gig is up for you, you've been exposed as a two bit hack.

...

Kalen,

You'd better be able to present a pretty concrete case here to be able to bring an ad hominen attack like that.
I await your substantiated arguments.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2011, 03:13:37 PM »
...destroyed is apropoa.


Is this some sort of veiled criticism of their turf cultivation practices?

Just didn't want you to think this line went completely unnoticed.Really good.

Comedic posting brilliance there. Let's etymolopsyTM that sucker:
a- -- lacking, without
-pro- -- for, in support of
-poa -- grass

And this, this, is more comedy gold:

Quote
making smores at rater camp

Quote
petty campfire agendas

It's like George Lakoff and George Carlin mated and produced this offspring. Metaphorically speaking.

Always good to see intellectual horsepower on here, including Moriarty's.

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2011, 03:19:23 PM »
Maybe I’m too late and the thread has been jacked…just a general observation:

I certainly can’t speak for the architects, but have a lurker’s confession that may be an apt hint.  When I find my eyes glassing over on some threads, I remind myself that this is very elite group of golf nuts and an even more elite target market:  the traveling, upscale (maybe affluent) golfer.  In other words, just the type of customer everyone in this business desires.  In my case, I run a small, rural golf course and just try to stay afloat in our market.  But we do have a spectacular site, a regional appeal to travelers, and warmer conditions in the shoulder seasons and winter.  Some posts I read just to get a feel for what motivates a golfer to throw his clubs in the truck and go play a different course.  There isn’t so much a need to discuss someone’s opinions in this context; it’s more a matter of understanding them.  It’s my guess that some of the archies that do read this site just want to learn how golfers (a very committed, educated, and, for better or worse, elite group of golfers) respond to golf courses and design.  Same with supers with regard to setup, conditioning, and maintenance.  What’s to discuss?  Folks who build and maintain golf course know far more about how to do their jobs well than a lot of us that just like to talk and read about them.
     
It’s interesting to me because most golfers couldn’t care less about discussing most of this stuff.  Not that they don’t appreciate it on some level, it’s just on a more subconscious, nonverbal, non-analytical, or emotional level.  For example, on a thread about changing a course’s routing, several architects mentioned the members’ resistance to make routing changes even if would make the course better.  Invariably, when I theoretically discuss with a few of our golfers about how a hole or the routing could be improved, I always hear “that’s my favorite hole; don’t change it.”  I’m pretty sure these same golfers would learn to love the changes once they were in the dirt, but lack the imagination to visualize them out of thin air.

I’m not saying I’m here solely for market research or any other particular purpose.  I just enjoy reading sometimes articulate and intelligent thoughts about golf design.  I especially enjoy the expert remarks from the archies and supers.  Personally, I thank all of you for contributing.  I don’t know how you find the time and fully understand if you can’t.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2011, 03:24:55 PM »


And who knows, maybe someday, someone will actually like something I've done.

High Meadow Ranch ++!

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #57 on: April 27, 2011, 03:26:13 PM »
Pretty telling how different people can have such different reads of threads.

-----

Very thoughtful post, Dave McCollum, nicely done.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2011, 03:58:32 PM »
Dave M.  Did you ever proceed with that bunker program you mentioned last year?  I found your course on Google Earth and your right, what an interesting location.  I'd love to get there sometime just for the scenery.

Bill M. Thanks, I'm blushing.
Coasting is a downhill process

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2011, 05:33:52 PM »
Paul, it maybe that some feel uncomfortable in this medium. Others may just have too thin of a skin.  I do remember after my first post John Kavanaugh responding with "who are you and why should we care?"  Luckily, Jeff Brauer jumped in or I might have just said "screw this".  (and then to find out that John's brother Ken is a fellow ASGCA Member LOL).  Also, around that time there seemed to be anti-ASGCA sentiment (as if we have anything in common with one another outside our Ross Plaid jackets and we all make our living doing the same thing) and that might has dissuaded some.

What kept me involved was, under all the petty aurguments, there were people who truely were in search of information about courses, design, and construction that I could share. And, in return, I can gleen a better insight as to how the non-architect sees the golf world.  An added benefit is what I have learned from many of the historians and players of clubs that I have never had the opportunity to visit firsthand.  I can understand why some don't want their views published but I also feel it is a shame.  The more we can educate each other, the greater understanding we will all garner.

And who knows, maybe someday, someone will actually like something I've done.


'like'
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2011, 07:17:34 PM »
Dave M.  Did you ever proceed with that bunker program you mentioned last year?  I found your course on Google Earth and your right, what an interesting location.  I'd love to get there sometime just for the scenery.

Bill M. Thanks, I'm blushing.

I'm with you on Dave's place down in that canyon.

No need to blush, High Meadow Ranch was just outstanding, good variety and even a nice set of church pew bunkers.  And a spectacular closer over the river and stone wall.  See, I was paying attention!

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2011, 10:13:20 PM »
The hijacking of this thread is an indication of what Mike Young said and why I am not on here more. This hijacking is so bizarre as to be a total and complete waist of time to even read. By the by my apologies to the dozen of so great architects I forgot to list.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2011, 01:31:15 PM »
The hijacking of this thread is an indication of what Mike Young said and why I am not on here more. This hijacking is so bizarre as to be a total and complete waist of time to even read. By the by my apologies to the dozen of so great architects I forgot to list.

What hijacking?

The thread went into some more detailed discussion of why Jim Engh may not be posting here. Was that a hijacking?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #63 on: April 29, 2011, 01:00:10 PM »
Don’t have time right now.  Quick answer:  bunker project/renovation on paper awaiting funding, working with Dave Zinkand/Jeff Bradley (C&C guys).  We’re just a local Ma and Pa course, but should any of you guys find yourselves lost in the nearby hinterlands, come on down!  The 3 or so archies I’ve shown around like our bones.  Even though I’ve got nobody to talk to but my resident golf pros, who have to listen to my BS (in exchange for a paycheck), I promise not to talk your ears off about GCA.  I’m more of listener/lurker, anyway.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #64 on: April 29, 2011, 06:24:38 PM »
whats the courses location Dave?
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #65 on: April 29, 2011, 06:49:04 PM »
Paul,

Thanks to the google, I believe it is Canyon Springs in beautiful Twin Falls, ID.

http://www.canyonspringsgolf.com/

Dave, if I'm right, if Kitty Roberts shows up give her my best....she's my golf nut loving aunt.

Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #66 on: April 29, 2011, 08:26:08 PM »
whats the courses location Dave?

Twin Falls, ID

Was to be the site of the next GRUDGE MATCH until Kalen packed up and got out of town (SLC).
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #67 on: April 29, 2011, 10:57:01 PM »
Because no matter what you try to convey someone in the 1500 will twist it, turn it up side down, inside out and try to start shit. Too many people feed on it, need it and one gets tired of supplying their fixes. But thats the downside, I am a better more qualified architect today and I owe some of that to GCA and the people that contribute in a postive professional manner...and to all those persons...thanks!

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #68 on: April 29, 2011, 11:15:31 PM »
Garland,
Damn, I’m disappointed to hear that.  I would have been honored to do the blow-by-blow photojournalism.  Not only do I know my way around a digital camera, I’m as long-winded as Herb Wind at the keyboard.  I expect I’d be a good bit less courtly and articulate in the captions, but, given the homer’s landscape, I would have zoomed out on the action, sparing you guys the fashionable details.  Anytime, should the GRUDGE drift in our direction.  I’m trying to drift in yours in the next few weeks.  Zink is on the par 3 course at Bandon.  I’d like to go up and kick some dirt, see some creation, play some golf.  You got a job?  If not, send me a PM and I’ll send details.  I’m still looking for a copilot for the drive over, maybe my golf pro, but I’m going at some point under whatever conditions.  BTW, those 55mph speed limits in lonely central Oregon suck.

Dave,
You’re right on.  Be sure to tell Kitty to look me up if she comes this way.  We’re so far under the radar, a golf nut loving aunt is a welcome substitute for golf nut cga-er.   I don’t think she will be disappointed.  It may sound weird, but we exist in such a critical wilderness (cga-wise) that I crave outside perspective.  Now, if an actual cga-er would venture this way (with all your educated, hard-earned experience), you must allow a couple of rounds at the two courses here in the canyon.  Two very different journeys through the same environment, one public, ours, one private, but I can provide very reasonable access.  It won’t be a waste of time and I’ll enjoy the feedback.

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2011, 08:04:17 AM »
Dave,

I passed your name onto her.  She retired to Boise to golf, travels frequently, and believe me if she ever shows up you won't forget her.

Those two courses down in the canyon look to have a great location, 500 ft below the canyon rim.  Very cool.
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Ian Andrew

Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #70 on: April 30, 2011, 07:06:04 PM »
Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?

There are quite a few people who believe they have the moral ground to question an architect’s integrity. Being questioned on our decisions or choices is not the issue as much as having our ability or integrity questioned in such a public forum. Since our reputation is so important to us and our ability to attract future work, the potential damage that it could bring (and in my opinion has been done) makes it hard to participate.

My advantage is that I’m a 5th tier Regional Designer (your GCA tag – not mine – although funny) so nobody really cares enough to go after me, but I find it astounding to read someone having a go at some of the bigger names on the board.


Ian



Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #71 on: April 30, 2011, 07:41:41 PM »
Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?

There are quite a few people who believe they have the moral ground to question an architect’s integrity. Being questioned on our decisions or choices is not the issue as much as having our ability or integrity questioned in such a public forum. Since our reputation is so important to us and our ability to attract future work, the potential damage that it could bring (and in my opinion has been done) makes it hard to participate.

My advantage is that I’m a 5th tier Regional Designer (your GCA tag – not mine – although funny) so nobody really cares enough to go after me, but I find it astounding to read someone having a go at some of the bigger names on the board.


Ian




Ian-I think some of the archie bashing here for those not universally in favor is de rigueur and inflates the egos of those that have very little first hand knowledge of that which they are bashing.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 08:00:37 PM by Tim Martin »

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why have a lot of golf course architects stopped posting here?
« Reply #72 on: April 30, 2011, 11:04:36 PM »
Ian,

I heard a rumor that you are being promoted to 4th tier...tighten up the defenses!
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!