[Michael Dugger]

Today, my fellow GCA'ers, we are officially members of the Dark Age.

If golf course architecture enjoyed a "Golden Era," then we are now in the Dark.

Tom Doak speak of it......Jack Nicklaus and Pete Dye know it is true.

There are a scant few projects currently undergoing construction.  All your D-5 operators are thrilled to land a gig; someone who may have once carved bunkers for C & C is now probably thrilled to land a job digging a lap pool.

Construction has come to a crawl.  We at GCA are tearing each other apart because there isn't enough new subject matter to keep us occupied.

I am serious, folks, this is a bona fide Dark Age.  Discuss, please.....we are witnesses of history.

Southern Hills was constructed by 500 men desperately seeking employment.  I LOVE STORIES LIKE THIS!!!

Tell me how this Dark Age makes you feel...  

[Bill_McBride]

On that cheery note I am walking out the door to fly to Charlotte for the Dixie Cup.  Playing with 28 GCA.com golfers has a way of lifting your spirits!

Michael D, I suggest you drop everything and head out for a round of golf.  Golf is a good way to relieve anxiety and stress.

Like the housing market, the golf market was overbuilt, fueled by easy money and high expectations.  Our economy is cyclical.  The current gluts will be burned off and life will go on.

[Phil_the_Author]

Michael,

I finally managed to start a fire with my flint, unfortunately it doesn't seem like its going to last and my computer is about to lose powe........

[Ryan Farrow]

Michael,

Its not the dark ages in China but few people on here seem to care about any discussions regarding China unless Doak or C&C are involved.

[Jason Topp]

Michael,

Its not the dark ages in China . . . .

That was my first thought in reading the thread especially in light of the Curley interview.  Of course, few of us will see the courses in China so it is a little difficult to get excited about them over here and it is very difficult to have any sort of enlightened commentary on them.

[Brian_Ewen]

Michael,

Its not the dark ages in China but few people on here seem to care about any discussions regarding China unless Doak or C&C are involved.

Ryan,
Why limit it to China ?

It seems busy enough in SE Asia also, from what I have seen.

[Davis Wildman]

Michael,

Its not the dark ages in China but few people on here seem to care about any discussions regarding China unless Doak or C&C are involved.

Ryan,

I'd love to hear more about golf course design from around the world...kind of a 'cultural anthropology' of golf design, build and attitudes about the game...please, post away all you globe-trotting guys.  We are hear to learn; why limit ourselves?

I've never played 99.9% of the courses we discuss here, but I enjoy reading others' commentary and perspective on playability, design and all other aspects of golf design and business.

Fire away!

thanks,

[Mike Sweeney]

Michael,

Its not the dark ages in China but few people on here seem to care about any discussions regarding China unless Doak or C&C are involved.

Ryan,

I'd love to hear more about golf course design from around the world...kind of a 'cultural anthropology' of golf design, build and attitudes about the game...please, post away all you globe-trotting guys.  We are hear to learn; why limit ourselves?

I've never played 99.9% of the courses we discuss here, but I enjoy reading others' commentary and perspective on playability, design and all other aspects of golf design and business.

Fire away!

thanks,

Agreed, I would be interested for a number reasons:

1. GCA and golf differences.
2. Cultural differences.
3. Business differences.

[Mike_Young]

Michael,

Its not the dark ages in China but few people on here seem to care about any discussions regarding China unless Doak or C&C are involved.

Ryan,
With all due respect for golf in china....it may not be there yet..but it is coming...there are not enough people to play the courses and the developers are wanting stuff built that those who play can't play and the beginners will not stick with it long enough to learn the game....across the board we have killed the game by making it a business...everyone in every position takes themselves so seriously and wants their piece of the pie so we complicate each step and it just doesn't work.....trust me it's there in china but they don't know it....they don't even have a clue what they are stepping into....as a whole....

as for here:
this was in a magazine today
-- In 2003, there were 30.6 million U.S. golfers. Today there are 27.1 million.

-- In 1990, 12.1 percent of the U.S. population played golf. By 2000, the number had fallen to 11.1 percent, and in 2008 it was down to 10.2 percent.

-- In 2001, 518 million rounds of golf were played in the United States. In 2008, 489 million were played.

-- In 1988, our nation had 4,900 private clubs with 3 million members. Today it has 4,400 clubs with 2.1 million members.

-- In the 1990s, we had something like 16,000 public golf properties. Today we have 11,600.

[Ian Andrew]

I've talked to a lot of Golf Course Architects in the last few weeks. There is work going on. It's just not the type of work that catches as much attention or interest from GCA.

My experience in the last few years has been that private clubs are spending far more time and money on planning. The resources are more limited and they want to make sure that the decisions are well thought out since they can’t afford to make mistakes like they did in the past.

I’ve noticed a general trend of more capitol being spent and more optimism in the membership and board. The clubs are no longer scared. I would call them cautiously optimistic.

[Colin Macqueen]

Davis,
You say,
"I'd love to hear more about golf course design from around the world...kind of a 'cultural anthropology' of golf design, build and attitudes.....". 
Check out the feature interview with Curley re China. 
I was staggered at the extent of the operations, the labour intensive approach, and the buisness culture which sounds novel never mind pretty scary. It makes exciting but nerve-wracking reading to the likes of me! Very interesting and I take my hat off to those intrepid architects willing to risk their arm(s)!)

[Adam Clayman]

It's only the dark ages from a revenue perspective.

However, there's never been more diversity in the type of golf that's available versus what was available back in 1983.

So, while I feel for those who are in a position where they really need the revenue, the lessons the game teaches are not limited to the playing fields.

[Davis Wildman]

Davis,
You say,
"I'd love to hear more about golf course design from around the world...kind of a 'cultural anthropology' of golf design, build and attitudes.....". 
Check out the feature interview with Curley re China. 
I was staggered at the extent of the operations, the labour intensive approach, and the buisness culture which sounds novel never mind pretty scary. It makes exciting but nerve-wracking reading to the likes of me! Very interesting and I take my hat off to those intrepid architects willing to risk their arm(s)!)

Colin,
Thank you so much for reminding to read the Brian Curley interview; I only glanced at it when Ran posted it, and I am remiss for not reading in full then, but did so last night at 4am East Coast US time...get in some of my best reading and research in the wee-hours of the morning when I can't sleep

I thoroughly enjoyed it...I'd also love to sit in with Brian C on guitar, one day, if our golf work ever makes it to Asia...I'm not an architect; however, but I can hit a lick or two on the axe.

Hope my post didn't come across as a swipe at Ryan...it was meant as encouragement or a suggestion to bring on more of what most of us can't see or play unless we go there...again, I find it fascinating from an anthropological perspective, as well.

Cheers

[Dan Grossman]

Michael,

Its not the dark ages in China but few people on here seem to care about any discussions regarding China unless Doak or C&C are involved.

I think C&C are building a course in China on Hainan Island.  Other than a well written article by one of the design team, I haven't seen much discussion.

[Ryan Farrow]

Mike Young,

I'm spending way too much time over here with the Cagle Brothers, they are a hoot. Too many stories about The Heritage and the  . I don't believe half of what they tell me.


I'm not sure what you are trying to say though? Do you think China will suffer the same decline as golf in the US?


 I really don't see the numbers of golfers declining anytime soon. We have a wild variety of golf courses at our Mission Hills project... None of the BS that comes across with having 6 sets of tees. We have enough courses to cater to each group of golfer.....

There are plenty of projects being built across China that just don't have the acreage for a lengthy course but the chairman of this or that company will accept an executive length course, just to have golf course to sell homes. Golf is a land grab here to build homes in the future. I think you will see plenty of variety here, and not just a bunch of beat em up 7,200 + yard courses with water everywhere. Maybe its not by choice, but there will plenty of courses for beginners in China.




Davis,

no offense here.... I know reading Brian's interview will be a shock to a lot of people. Living and working over here has been an eye-opener to say the least. It may take some time for this group to accept what the Chinese are doing here and why, but there is plenty great golf over here.....


And maybe some of you might get a free trip over here with a couple of your friends to check the place out...... 


I'll reveal more in a couple days, but be ready to get blown away..... I think you guys will like what were cookin' up.....

[Jonathan Cummings]

Michael,

unless Doak or C&C are involved.

There are other architects out there other than Doak and C&C??   

[Tom_Doak]

There are plenty of projects being built across China that just don't have the acreage for a lengthy course but the chairman of this or that company will accept an executive length course, just to have golf course to sell homes. Golf is a land grab here to build homes in the future. I think you will see plenty of variety here, and not just a bunch of beat em up 7,200 + yard courses with water everywhere. Maybe its not by choice, but there will plenty of courses for beginners in China.

Ryan,

This was the one thing you said which surprised me.  At the world architects' forum in St. Andrews in March, the Aussie architect Phil Ryan (who has worked extensively in Asia) put up a slide that the AVERAGE course in China was 7200 yards or something.  And a couple of my friends there have told me that most developers insist on lengthy courses ... in fact, I've been told that many Chinese golfers insist on playing the back tees, even if they are no good, because the longer and more difficult the course, the more opportunity there is to double the bets!

I suspect what Mike is saying is that most courses in China are being built to an expectation of what the customer WILL want, because there really aren't many sophisticated customers today to say what they DO want.  That has been a big problem for golf course architecture, not just in the developing countries but around the world ... even in America, we build courses too long and too hard because the client thinks he will attract a clientele (or events) that never materialize.

[Peter Pallotta]

Just from personal observation, the +7,000 yard course will only attract the expected clientele if that clientele is made up entirely of 25 year old men (give or take 5 years).  I remember being younger and playing with guys who had no business playing from the back tees; in fact, I don't think I have ever played with anyone who had any business playing from the back tees.  But, once you got past having to 'prove yourself' in every area of your life and every time out  (and the lying to yourself and cheating that goes with that, e.g. "I'll just drop here and take a stroke" after slicing it short and out of bounds), those back tees on a +7000 golf course seem like fools gold, an idiot's delight.But maybe many of the golfers in China are still "young at heart".  

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