[David_Elvins]

There was a thread a few days ago which got me thinking and led me to conclude that all my favorite courses have great green countouring.  They have a fantastic combination of subtle undulations or internal contours combined with broad flowing contours or strategic tilting.  Examples I have seen would include The Old Course, Royal Melbourne, Merion, Barnbugle Dunes, St Andrews Beach, Pasatiempo, Kingston Heath and maybe Garden City.  I would guess that courses such as Sand Hills, Pine valley and Cypress Point would also fit the bill 

What also struck me was that if an architect is talented enough to build great green contouring, they are probably also talented enough to get the rest of course right as well -variety of hole length, width, strategies, naturalness in particular.  To me, it is a defining feature of the great courses I have seen. 

Conversely, if a course has flat greens, it is commonly deficient in other areas - long, straight, narrow, a complete lack of artistry in the bunkering.  Or if a course has big bold contours without the subtle internal cotours it is likely to be a course that doesn't quite work.  The strategies are poorly implemented the course is over-bunkered and the natrualness of the presentation is lacking. The course looks 'busy'. 

So what are some courses that break these stereotypes? 

My nomination for the worst course with great green contours would be Philadelphia Country Club.  The contouring of the greens is some of the most beautiful I have seen.  Beautiful mini rols that go in every directions and work. for and against the player.  Original and full of variety.  The rest of the course, whilst good (especially the interesting routing), is nowhere up to the standard of the greens IMO.  the story I heard was that perhaps Maxwell had come in and rebuilt all the greens, which might explain their exceptional contour compared to the rest of the course.  (Not that Flynn was a slouch)


What other courses have great green contouring that is let down by the standard of the rest of the course?

[jonathan_becker]

David,

Before I even clicked on the thread link, I said to myself "Philly CC".  It's a great example of great greens that far surpass the rest of the course. I recently played it for the first time and couldn't agree more.   
 
Holes 3, 7, 11, 12, 16, and 17 were the best holes IMO (with my favorite being 17),  but a lot of the front 9 holes and a few on the back were underwhelming tee to green.  I enjoyed my day there and I don't mean to knock the course because it's a great place to play golf, but I wouldn't put in my top 25.  Maybe playing Merion the day before didn't help either, but all of Philly CC's greens are very challenging and have great variety.

[Adam Clayman]

Lake Maloney, in North Platte Ne. came to mind when I read the topic. It's $20, has great terrain, lousy looking bunkers, BUT, the greens are fantastic. Their movements are hidden from a 100 yards away.

[JESII]

I was hoping to get something like that Adam...Philly Country is in the top 1% or 2% of golf courses in the States.

[Tom_Doak]

"Worst" is, of course, relative, but there is not a bad course in the world with great green contouring.

[David_Elvins]

Philly Country is in the top 1% or 2% of golf courses in the States.

Jim,

Definitely,which is a reflection on how good I think the green contouring is.  Often, studying GCA is about identifying the best of the best and the green contouring at Philly CC is all world IMO (ie top 0.1% in world), whilst the course is not.   If I was designing a golf course, I would try to spend weeks at Philly CC to study those greens.  The 3rd, and 7th greens at Merion have all world contouring, it seems like almost all the greens at Philly are that good.  

Are there any other courses up in the northeast that are relatively  low profile on here but worth checking out for their green contouring?  

[Greg Tallman]

Only thing that comes to mind is Oxbow Golf Club just outside Belpre, Ohio.

Michael Hurdzan was the designer long ago. Pretty wild green though the rest is... well funky, disjointed and occasionally cramped.

Truth be told it is a fun play though rather pedestrian overall. The greens do make it what it is.

[Ian Andrew]

I don’t know if this fits the bill, because I have a hard time getting my head around that concept. I don't have much love for Oakland Hills outside of a couple of holes, but I thought the greens were stunning throughout. “Worst” is not a word that I would apply to Oakland Hills, but I think it may fit the concept and discussion your trying to elicit.

[Andy Troeger]

I played my high school golf on a little 9-holer outside South Bend, Indiana called Robin Hood GC (that's not a joke, by the way). It was very unremarkable, from the first hole that turned left around the driving range (separated by a huge net), to many holes with OB including in-course OB on the 8th hole. I think some opponents refused to play us there.  The overall conditioning was what you would expect for a course that charged less than $10 to walk for nine.

With all that, the greens were interesting and well kept. Some had a general slope, others some interesting internal contour. None were huge, but a couple had enough size to create some different levels. They were by far the best part of the course and I actually grew to enjoy playing it.

[Roger Wolfe]

Isn't Pinehurst #2 the ultimate example?  Flat and uninspiring terrain but outrageous greens complexes? 

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