[Greg Cameron]

What % of an 18 hole design time is math orientated?I am presently working on 2 projects,almost polar opposites in regards to design in that one is a design-build,little or no plans(just move more dirt to make grades work)and the other very detailed,intricate plan/sketch site that must have required hours and hours of math for the architect to make his artistic/creative vision work regarding slopes,grades,and drainage .Certainly computers would do these tedious tasks,yet I doubt many architects (excepting large firms)would use them.Kinda related to Ian Andrews Death of a Firm thread.My guess would be 35-50% of time for those not employing computer software.Probably the smaller firms or one man shows like Ian's.Thoughts?

[Tom_Doak]

Greg:

I am not sure I understand your question.  Math oriented?  Does that include figuring out the budget side of everything?

Budget side apart, getting the quantities to balance is usually fairly simple, unless a development parcel is complicating matters.  We do spend a bit of time balancing things, but on most projects I am able to do a lot of the math in my head, in one day.

[Carl Rogers]

TD or anyone,
Is there a web site to visit or reference that some of the rest of us might review to get a sense of costs (linear feet of irrigation & cost per head, cubic yard of bunker sand, dollars per square foot of a bent grass green etc)?  Or is a function of beating it out of every project from the dirt up?

In the world of buildings, MEANS is the basic database.  It works ok for most larger market places, but in times like these you will over estimate a project.

[Tom_Doak]

Carl:

I don't know where you would find a reasonably up-to-date version of unit costs for golf course construction.  We keep them from past projects and then call around to verify certain key prices.  Contractors guard their numbers fairly closely, although you can get a pretty good idea of the real costs and which line items are their profit centers when you compare bids for a renovation project.

Also, prices vary from one area to the next.  I've known people to import bunker sand for $60 - $100 per ton, and I've heard it cost $15 -- or $0 for Pacific Dunes or Ballyneal.  Greens construction, same thing.  Irrigation systems usually run $800 - $1000 per head if you are putting in a new pump station as well and getting a contractor to install it ... some superintendents could cut this number in half doing it themselves.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Carl.

The golf course builders association produces a cost guide every year or two.  Like Tom, I use my own past work, adjusted for local materials and conditions for estimates, but I think these are pretty good for generic use.

Greg,

To be honest, I think math ends up being a larger % of the job than most realize.  At some point, the gca has to translate touchy feely things like "big greens" or "rolling putting surfaces" or "wide fw" to a square footage, % of slope, or linear measurement to implement the plan.  In my view, if the gca lets someone else do that, he's playing in the dirt like a Tour Pro, and not really the designer.  The math (and I agree that after many courses, some of it is intuitive) is what separates the gca from the conceptualist because its getting the details right that separates good from bad gc design.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

I was always very good at math as a kid; maybe for me it is just all intuitive.  Yes, we have to think in terms of percent slopes when building greens, but I never really thought of that as math.  Engineering, maybe, as to how it all fits together; but the math [keeping the number under 3% where you want to put a hole] is pretty darned easy.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,

I didn't say it was hard math......but, its math!

One of my kids had an assignment once to bring an example of their parents use of math to school. I presented her with my budget estimating form, filled in, and she got a "D."  Teacher said it wasn't realistic.....so did a few owners, but generally it serves me well.

[Greg Cameron]

TD ,I was referring to grading  and drainage plans,hence cut and fill.Somehow I figured your firm would make it work like our design- build project,and other gca's that put to tender would need  more detailed designs.Simple math,yet still # crunching

[Jeff_Brauer]

Greg,

I am a small shop, too, but have always done grading plans and cut and fill estimates.  I was going to post earlier that even full field gca's would probably estimate cut and fill visually in the field. If a green or tee is supposed to balance, sometimes a note to that effect on the plans is all that is needed. Not too many contractors would figure a bid down to the yard - they would figure a D9 or whatever a day to push around the dirt to rough grade, which would cost the same no matter how many yards were moved.

And, without real plans, the easiest way to estimate how to balance cut and fill in such cases is to base the green elevation on the grade of the center pole, or perhaps slightly below it.  I am not sure if that counts as math, or not.

[Powell Arms]

Greg,

Looking at this from my experience in commercial RE development, I would love to find a municipality in the US that allows design / build "in the field" sitework.  I have never had an earth moving project that doesnt have $250,000 + of engineered plans for stormwater mgmt, infrastructure, and soil conservation during construction, all down to a very fine level of detail.



Powell

[Tom_Doak]

Greg,

Looking at this from my experience in commercial RE development, I would love to find a municipality in the US that allows design / build "in the field" sitework.  I have never had an earth moving project that doesnt have $250,000 + of engineered plans for stormwater mgmt, infrastructure, and soil conservation during construction, all down to a very fine level of detail.



Powell

Powell:

What is your point above, exactly?  I have done several projects that didn't have $250,000 of stormwater mgmt, infrastructure, and soil conservation all put together, much less spending $250,000 drawing plans for them.

[Tom_Doak]

Greg,

I am a small shop, too, but have always done grading plans and cut and fill estimates.  I was going to post earlier that even full field gca's would probably estimate cut and fill visually in the field. If a green or tee is supposed to balance, sometimes a note to that effect on the plans is all that is needed. Not too many contractors would figure a bid down to the yard - they would figure a D9 or whatever a day to push around the dirt to rough grade, which would cost the same no matter how many yards were moved.

And, without real plans, the easiest way to estimate how to balance cut and fill in such cases is to base the green elevation on the grade of the center pole, or perhaps slightly below it.  I am not sure if that counts as math, or not.

It amazes me how complicated people can make this part of design.

I rarely plan on hauling fill to a green site or taking material away; it usually seems pretty easy to just shape with what we've got, and you don't have to worry about balancing it from one end of the dozer blade to the other.

When we do have to move cut and fill around site, it is simple enough to estimate what we are going to do on the plans by boxing off the area and estimating the average cut (or fill) and getting a round number [8000 yards] that is generally just as close to being right as the overly-precise computer estimate [7442 yards].

[Powell Arms]

Tom,

To clarify, my frame of reference is 50-150 acre projects. Generally adding impervious coverage. And almost always under the condition to make post development stormwater flows match predevelopment flows. The scope I am envisioning in my answer includes the overall engineering and design required to obtain federal, state and local permits for the development of raw land into a golf course.  (stormwater, drainage, wetland delineation & impacts, parking and driveway design, etc), and a set of plans to sufficient level of detail to send out to bid.

So, in answer to the original question, my thought would be that math easily constitutes 35% of the design of an 18 hole golf course, from idea to grand opening.

If the initial question is asking about the math involvement in the shaping of particular holes or elements within the project, then that is certainly not my area of expertise.

Powell

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,

More power to you if you continually get projects that don't require extensive permitting and planning to pass muster with the authorities.  That doesn't seem to be the trend I see.  Count your blessings.

As to cut and fill estimation, we do it that way in prelims, but its also a simple matter to draw a few contour lines and measure their area and convert to cu yards.  In some cases, we do it on our CAD program, and engineers and/or contractors question our numbers because their CAD program spits out a slightly different number.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

More power to you if you continually get projects that don't require extensive permitting and planning to pass muster with the authorities.  That doesn't seem to be the trend I see.  Count your blessings.

As to cut and fill estimation, we do it that way in prelims, but its also a simple matter to draw a few contour lines and measure their area and convert to cu yards.  In some cases, we do it on our CAD program, and engineers and/or contractors question our numbers because their CAD program spits out a slightly different number.

Jeff:

I know it's a simple matter to draw a few contour lines ... we have done that for most of our projects, because someone or other wanted to see it.  As you say, it's no big deal, and it's even easier as long as you keep the design simple.  But I still generally do the dirt estimates in round numbers, because per your example, CAD often raises as many questions as answers.

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